Christianity and Catholicism

Do you consider the two to be of the same religion? There are people that say Catholics are Christians, but I disagree. Now the Catholic church these days is different than it used to be, but in my mother's time, Catholics believed giving a lot of money to the church when somebody died would get them to Heaven faster, and that if you went to church when your kids didn't, that they would be alright in that regard, that you could even the grand scales for them. And what about all this Hail Mary stuff, praying to Mary, the Pope, the saints? They're not God so wouldn't that qualify as idol worship instead? And confession? The Bible doesn't say man can forgive sin, not even the priests in the church could, so what's the point in telling them about what you've done just so they can tell you to say 10 Hail Marys or whatever? And there are some Catholics who believe eventually EVERYBODY, even the worst of the worst in the deepest pit of hell, well all become angels in Heaven. Then why would the ones in hell be in hell in the first place? Now obviously, a lot of this stuff doesn't still go on today because today you'll be told that no that stuff never happens, the church doesn't say you should give money to get somebody into heaven or go for people who don't go, maybe not today but it used to, and I have a friend who HER mother says much of the same thing. And what about purgatory? You die and don't go to heaven yet, and you don't go to hell, but you're in a limbo where you still have to pay for your sins before you get to Heaven, isn't that the general idea? Doesn't that imply that God is unable to make that determination of your final destination immediately? However if He can create the universe and everything in it in 6 days, I think He can conclude on your fate immediately following your death as well.


Now looking at Christianity, there's no way to Heaven but through God, so that wipes away giving money to the church to get someone through purgatory quicker, and going to church in place of other people, and I think we can agree that somewhere in there it also wipes away the idea of praying to Mary or the Pope as well since that'll do you about as much good as talking to the wall.


Now, that's not to say that the two aren't similar in some regards, they are, they seem to have a common goal which would be having faith in the Lord God in your life and at the end of your life going to Heaven, however, in the past anyway, I don't know how they do today, the paths by which they believe you reach that goal, differ about as much as day and night. That's the way I see it anyway, because, last time I checked, Christianity and its churches didn't have rosaries, confession, or any of that, so I don't really understand how people can say yes they're exactly the same thing. How about everybody else?

I think you might be confusing official Catholic teachings with common misconceptions Catholics had. For example: The Church NEVER taught that giving lots of money would get you into heaven. Catholics in your Mother's time who believed that believed that against Church teaching.

Who prays to the Pope? Nobody I know of, nobody worships him either. (Do you worship your pastor?)

Hail Mary is a prayer based on the Bible in part(Gabriel's and Elizabeth's addresses to her, were they worshipping her?), and in part asking Mary to pray for us in part as well.(We ask each other to do the same, why not those in heaven, especially Jesus' own mother?) Mary is not worshiped, neither are saints. Look at the prayers "to" them and you clearly see that nothing in them qualify as worship.

The Church teaches that God IS the way to heaven, the Church just affords us many ways to stay close to God since it's in human nature to stray to the world.

And last time I checked, a lot of modern Christian churches started within the past few hundred years, so confession and rosaries would predate them, so it's unfair to say that "Christianity" didn't have these things because modern churches don't.(Although many Catholic things have made their way into many Protestant churches as well)The rosary is a very Biblical series of prayers(Our Father given by Jesus himself, Hail Mary being half Biblical quotes, the Glory Be being praises to the trinity), as is Confession. Christ clearly gave his apostles the power to forgive sins explicitly in Scripture. It would only make sense that said power would be handed down to future people, lest the Church be something that died would the apostles.

And I can assure you that the Church has NEVER taught that those in hell go to heaven. IDK where you get that. If Catholics believe so, they again do so against the Church. I don't think you can judge the Church by it's members who believe things the Church never taught. The Church is clear, those in hell are there FOREVER.

Why wouldn't you consider Catholicism to be Christian? It teaches that Christ is the Lord and savior and that he died for our sins. You might disagree with their teachings/interpretation of Scripture, but calling into question their Christianity can only be the result of a misunderstanding of their teachings. Catholics are clearly Christians. If you call into question their Christianity, you can do the same to any denomination.(Baptise, Methodist, Pentecostal, SDA, etc.)

So yeah, this is a mouthful, but I think if you look at Catholicism, you can't deny that it is Christian. All denominations different from yours will have different beliefs. You can't say they aren't Christian because of it. And it seems like a lot of the "beliefs" of Catholicism you've touted as evidence that they aren't Christian are either explicitly taught in Scripture(ie Confession) OR they just aren't taught by the Church period.(ie Idol worship, you can buy your way into heaven, those in hell go to heaven) So I think you might need to see what the Church really teaches before writing them off as unChristian.

It's bascially the same shit.

I am so not a religious person, but I always thought Christianity was the bigger umbrella that Catholicism fitted under. Like Christianity was the continent and Catholicism is a country on it. I don't know.

Do you consider the two to be of the same religion? Yes. Catholics ARE Christians. There are many different denominations of Christianity. Catholicism is the biggest branch and the first organized form of the religion. Everything else pretty much broke off from it (which is why they don't call themselves Catholics, but still Christians)

There are people that say Catholics are Christians, but I disagree. It doesn't matter whether you agree or not. The fact is, Catholcism is based on a belief in Jesus Christ as the messiah. Therefore, Cathlics are by definition "Christians".
Now the Catholic church these days is different than it used to be, but in my mother's time, Catholics believed giving a lot of money to the church when somebody died would get them to Heaven faster, and that if you went to church when your kids didn't, that they would be alright in that regard, that you could even the grand scales for them. And what about all this Hail Mary stuff, praying to Mary, the Pope, the saints? They're not God so wouldn't that qualify as idol worship instead? And confession? The Bible doesn't say man can forgive sin, not even the priests in the church could, so what's the point in telling them about what you've done just so they can tell you to say 10 Hail Marys or whatever? And there are some Catholics who believe eventually EVERYBODY, even the worst of the worst in the deepest pit of hell, well all become angels in Heaven. Then why would the ones in hell be in hell in the first place? Now obviously, a lot of this stuff doesn't still go on today because today you'll be told that no that stuff never happens, the church doesn't say you should give money to get somebody into heaven or go for people who don't go, maybe not today but it used to, and I have a friend who HER mother says much of the same thing. And what about purgatory? You die and don't go to heaven yet, and you don't go to hell, but you're in a limbo where you still have to pay for your sins before you get to Heaven, isn't that the general idea? Doesn't that imply that God is unable to make that determination of your final destination immediately? However if He can create the universe and everything in it in 6 days, I think He can conclude on your fate immediately following your death as well. Yes there are many strange things about the Catholic church and their practices but they probably say the same thing about non-Catholic Christians as well. Catholics unlike other Christians don't just go off the bible, they also worship and practice religion through Church tradition and trust the clergy to intepret the word for them. While I don't agree with some of their practices, I'm not going to say they are not "Christian" because the only person qualified to judge that is Jesus. By the way, there are also Protestant churches that ask for money and abuse their congregations as well so that is hardly exclusive to Catholics.

Now, that's not to say that the two aren't similar in some regards, they are, they seem to have a common goal which would be having faith in the Lord God in your life and at the end of your life going to Heaven, however, in the past anyway, I don't know how they do today, the paths by which they believe you reach that goal, differ about as much as day and night. That's the way I see it anyway, because, last time I checked, Christianity and its churches didn't have rosaries, confession, or any of that, so I don't really understand how people can say yes they're exactly the same thing. How about everybody else? Nobody is saying they are EXACTLY THE SAME and frankly, that wasen't even YOUR question. You asked whether or not they are the same religion. The answer is yes. That doesn't mean they are exactly the same because obviously there are many differences. It's like asking if a macintosh apple is the same as a granny smith apple. No, they are obviously different but they are both apples! The main idea of the religion (salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotton son of God) is the same. How they practice is different, that's all.

[quote="Forgiveness_Man"]Who prays to the Pope? Nobody I know of, nobody worships him either. (Do you worship your pastor?) He may not be "worshipped" in your opinion, but clearly he is venerated and revered much higher than the average person in a religious sense. Most protestants would consider that a form of worship. A pastor in a baptist or pentecostal church isn't held any higher than the average person.

Hail Mary is a prayer based on the Bible in part(Gabriel's and Elizabeth's addresses to her, were they worshipping her?), and in part asking Mary to pray for us in part as well.(We ask each other to do the same, why not those in heaven, especially Jesus' own mother?) First of all, Mary is also held no higher in most protestant churches than any other human. The fact that she bore the savior is irrelevant. Secondly, most protestants don't believe that Mary is in heaven (or any human that's died) because people don't go to heaven or hell until either the rapture or after the ressurection of the dead. Finally, most protestants believe prayers should be directed at God himself in Jesus name, not other people (dead or alive).
Mary is not worshiped, neither are saints. Look at the prayers "to" them and you clearly see that nothing in them qualify as worship. Again, that's is a matter of perspective. Evoking the name of dead humans in lieu of Jesus in prayer is tantamount to "worship" in the eyes of most protestants.

Christ clearly gave his apostles the power to forgive sins explicitly in Scripture. It would only make sense that said power would be handed down to future people, lest the Church be something that died would the apostles. Only Catholics believe that. Protestants don't.

Why wouldn't you consider Catholicism to be Christian? It teaches that Christ is the Lord and savior and that he died for our sins. You might disagree with their teachings/interpretation of Scripture, but calling into question their Christianity can only be the result of a misunderstanding of their teachings. Catholics are clearly Christians. If you call into question their Christianity, you can do the same to any denomination.(Baptise, Methodist, Pentecostal, SDA, etc.) Now this I agree with.

And it seems like a lot of the "beliefs" of Catholicism you've touted as evidence that they aren't Christian are either explicitly taught in Scripture(ie Confession) Where does the bible teach about "Confession"?

^^^^I'd say a Protestant pastor IS held in higher regard. The pope is only held higher cause he is believed to be the Biblically established leader of the Church. Nothing done to the pope comes anywhere near worship, merely respect.

Excuse me but most Protestants I know believe dead Christians to be in heaven now. There ARE those who believe in "soul sleep," but that is restricted to SDA's and such. Most Protestants believe in immediate heaven after death. But again, you're getting into a problem. I KNOW what Protestants in general believe, and clearly there are different teachings, BUT, the argument was that Catholics are not Christian and just because we have different rituals doesn't make Catholics not Christian. So you do not have to tell me that Protestants don't agree. You missed the entire point of my post. Protestants don't even agree with each other, hence the idea that having religious disagreements makes you unChristian was the idea I was refuting.

Where? I believe it was in John's Gospel most notably, although it's peppered throughout the New Testament. Of course, believing that Christian established a specific method for confessing sins doesn't make you unChristian, hence my point.

I'd say a Protestant pastor IS held in higher regard. Only in their ability to preach a sermon (due to their divinity school knowledge of the bible) and in how they are expected to portray themselves as Christians to the congregation. They are respected (usually) but they are not venerated above any other person in the congregation. They are not addressed by terms such as "holy" or "father", they are not bowed at and nobody kisses their rings or septers. A protestant minister is usually addressed as "brother" (denoting equal status with the congregation), or simply "pastor". Some protestant churches refer to the pastor as a "reverend" which is an ordained minister and the highest official title usually given to a protestant minister, but many churches avoid this title for the same reasons they avoid the Catholic traditions.

The pope is only held higher cause he is believed to be the Biblically established leader of the Church. Nothing done to the pope comes anywhere near worship, merely respect. Again, that is a matter of perspective. Most protestants view the pope treatment as tantamount to a type of worship. Catholics don't. It's simply a difference of opinion and ultimately comes down to each persons own conscience.


Excuse me but most Protestants I know believe dead Christians to be in heaven now. As you so eloquently pointed out with Catholics, just because some protestants "believe" something, doesn't necessarily make it true or even a tenant in Christian belief. It's certainly not something the bible teaches and most protestants I know (who actually read the bible) do NOT believe that the dead are anywhere right now.

There ARE those who believe in "soul sleep," but that is restricted to SDA's and such. Most Protestants believe in immediate heaven after death. That is simply not true. I've been to Baptist, Pentecostal and Non-Denominational churches and none of them ever taught that the dead are in heaven right now. Granted there my be differing opinions about that from individuals, but that isn't a doctrine of those churches.

But again, you're getting into a problem. I KNOW what Protestants in general believe, and clearly there are different teachings, BUT, the argument was that Catholics are not Christian and just because we have different rituals doesn't make Catholics not Christian. So you do not have to tell me that Protestants don't agree. You missed the entire point of my post. Actually, I didn't. If you go back and read, you'll see that I basically reflected your opinion (that Catholics are Christian) in my own post. That was never in dispute. It is YOU who missed the pont of my post.

Protestants don't even agree with each other, hence the idea that having religious disagreements makes you unChristian was the idea I was refuting. No two denominations agree with each other (otherwise they wouldn't be different denominations). But Catholics are usually more quick to judge the "un-Christian-ness" of protestants than the other way around. I know a couple (one Catholic, the other Baptist) that wanted to get married in a Catholic church and were refused because the wife wasn't Catholic. They said that Protestants are not "true" Christians, so they had to get married in a Baptist church instead. I'm not saying all Catholic churches are like that, but I've never heard of a protestant church doing anything like that.


Where? I believe it was in John's Gospel most notably, although it's peppered throughout the New Testament. Of course, believing that Christian established a specific method for confessing sins doesn't make you unChristian, hence my point. I don't necessarily believe that either. I'm familiar with most of the new testament and I'm just not convinced that there is a scripture that supports confession to a priest. I'd have to have an exact chapter and verse quoted in order to comment on that further.

There is nothing wrong with giving respect though. And many Protestants have greatly heralded leaders, living or deceased.

Again, you're acting like I don't understand that they disagree.

Well if you want to get Biblical, we can get Biblical. There is PLENTY of Biblical refutation of "soul sleep." I assure you, many Bible-reading Protestants reject soul sleep, especially the mainstream ones.

Well, Protestants don't have universally taught doctrines, each church is for the most part, different. However, "soul sleep" is not the most common of modern Protestant teachings. I've spoken to many Protestants and I can count on my finger those who don't believe in going to heaven immediately after death.

No, I didn't miss the point of your post. YOU missed the point of mine. You agreed with my point, I never disputed that. However, you were trying to argue against my post from a point that I wasn't arguing against. I KNOW what Protestants disagree with you know, and I was never saying that they agreed with Catholic teaching like you suggested I was.

True Catholics do not call non-Protestants not true Christians. If anything, they are more inclusive of what that definition is. SDA's are often not considered Christians by Protestants but Catholics consider them Christians. As for why they refused to marry a Catholic and a non-Catholic, there are several valid reasons for that(this is a separate discussion though) and why it may occur. It's not calling Protestants unChristian at all.

We can get into Biblical discussion later. But confession to a priest is plenty in there, but it's all part of a bigger picture you gotta step back to look at. That really isn't part of the scope of this thread though.

There is nothing wrong with giving respect though. And many Protestants have greatly heralded leaders, living or deceased. I agree. But there is a difference between respect and veneration. Some protestants actually take it too far. Catholics definitely take it way too far. But again, this is all just a matter of opinion. Ultimately, it's up to each individual to determine in their own conscience what constitutes "worship". I draw the line when one man is held closer to the Lord than the next man because I don't believe there is such a thing.

Again, you're acting like I don't understand that they disagree. No I'm not. I'm just pointing out some of the reasons WHY they disagree.

Well if you want to get Biblical, we can get Biblical. There is PLENTY of Biblical refutation of "soul sleep." I assure you, many Bible-reading Protestants reject soul sleep, especially the mainstream ones. Go for it, I'm all ears!

Well, Protestants don't have universally taught doctrines, each church is for the most part, different. However, "soul sleep" is not the most common of modern Protestant teachings. I've spoken to many Protestants and I can count on my finger those who don't believe in going to heaven immediately after death. As I said before, just because certain people "believe" something, doesn't mean it's a tenant or doctrine of that church. There were many thing I believed growing up that were simply not true and only after doing my own bible study and actual study with ministers was I able to come to these answers. It takes more than just sitting in a congregation being preached to sometimes.

No, I didn't miss the point of your post. YOU missed the point of mine. You agreed with my point, I never disputed that. However, you were trying to argue against my post from a point that I wasn't arguing against. I KNOW what Protestants disagree with you know, and I was never saying that they agreed with Catholic teaching like you suggested I was. We can go around in circles all day like this. Suffice it to say, Catholics are "Christian" but calling a person Christian doesn't denote that they are Catholic. I think that's the only point we share in common.

True Catholics do not call non-Protestants not true Christians. Non-Protestants? I'm not following you. Too many double negatives there.
If anything, they are more inclusive of what that definition is. SDA's are often not considered Christians by Protestants but Catholics consider them Christians. How do you figure? What protestants don't consider them Christians?
As for why they refused to marry a Catholic and a non-Catholic, there are several valid reasons for that (this is a separate discussion though) and why it may occur. It's not calling Protestants unChristian at all. Seems like it to me. The point being made here is the discrimination towards one group seems much stronger one way that the other. That was a pretty significant example.

We can get into Biblical discussion later. But confession to a priest is plenty in there, but it's all part of a bigger picture you gotta step back to look at. That really isn't part of the scope of this thread though. Perhaps another time then. I'd really like to know who in the NT discusses confessions to a priest and where such a scripture is located.

Again, none of it is done against Catholic interpretation of the Bible. One can greatly respect a man and not worship him. Agreeing with the practices or not doesn't invalidate Christian status, which was my original point.

I know many of the reasons WHY they disagree.

Well, we could get into where the Bible backs this belief so I can refute it, or I can introduce you to plenty of Protestants who don't believe in it. (Seriously, I can't say I've met one who has outsider of the SDA's, and I've met quite a few) Maybe it's more common where you live but as a whole, it's not that popular. If anything, Protests tend to believe you're in heaven quicker than Catholics do.

I agree with the sentiment, but due to human error, I feel personal interpretation just leads everybody all over the map and into a disunited mess.

I never said that calling them Christian meant they were Catholic. You seem to enjoy telling me things I already know.

Excuse me, non-Catholics, typo.

Again, I couldn't get into specifics since Protestants don't have a defined belief outside of "We're not Catholic." lol But yeah, many don't consider them Christian at all.

Well, you'd have to understand the church's position. It's not discrimination. It's just that the Church doesn't just dispense sacraments to anybody who wants them. You gotta understand Church teaching on this to see that this isn't discrimination. Besides, a Protestant letting you more easily marry outside your faith seems to me to just be a more "feel good" thing anyway and I think a lot of people want "feel good" religion.

Again, "confession to a priest" is a specific term, like trinity or Bible is. You don't find these terms in the book, just the basis for them. People make it sound like such a horrid thing. Are they really that bad? Then again, maybe they are.