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    Abstinence only.

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    Post by Impact Mon Sep 27, 2010 4:03 pm

    I am wondering how abstinence-only can be justified as the only appropriate form of sex ed. Kids are going have sex anyways, and it's being shown to not be effective.

    CDC analysis finds comprehensive sex ed is more effective than ab-only. An independent panel commissioned by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) has found that comprehensive sexuality education programs are better at helping teens avoid unwanted pregnancy and disease than abstinence-only programs. The Task Force on Community Preventive Services, an independent board responsible for making public health suggestions, analyzed data from 83 studies published over a period of 27 years. “Evidence and common sense have returned to public health policy,” says James Wagoner, executive director of Advocates for Youth. Two of the members of the CDC team of experts dissented from the findings, contending the data weren’t persuasive: Irene Erickson of the Institute of Research and Evaluation and Danielle Ruedt of the Georgia Governor’s Office of Children and Families. “Many types of [comprehensive] programs do not work, even in non-school settings, yet the recommendations do not identify what those are,” Erickson says. But CDC staffer Randy Elder disagrees with that assessment. “The whole point of what we are doing is to aggregate data from as many studies that are critical to answer the question,” Elder says. “What [Erickson and Ruedt] were doing was chopping up the evidence into very fine subsets to poke holes.” (Washington Post, Nov. 7)

    More information is here: TheCommunity Guide - Task Force Findings - Prevention of HIV/AIDS, otherSTIs and Pregnancy: Comprehensive Risk Reduction Interventions



    Promoting marriage and discouraging premarital sex through fear and false information remains a benchmark of abstinence-only sex education. The Heritage Keepers
    program repeatedly cites research suggesting that married people have better sex—and many of these statistics are attributed to Glenn T. Stanton, director of global insight for
    cultural and family renewal and senior analyst of marriage and sexuality at Focus on the Family. The WAIT (Why Am I Tempted?) Training program also depends heavily on moralistic, pro-marriage information to promote abstinence. The WAIT curriculum includes a game in which students repeatedly place a transparent piece of tape, symbolizing a woman, on a man's arm to show that after several "uses" (sexual acts or partners) the tape is less clean and perfect. Finally, the teacher is instructed to attach the tape to another male volunteer and ask, "If this process gets repeated too many times, do you think it will affect this person's marriage?" Such games aren't unique. Why kNOw? includes a game that compares a stuffed animal named "Speedy the Sperm," which represents a sperm cell, and a penny, used to symbolize HIV. By this reasoning, students are meant to see that if a condom fails 14 percent of the time with something as big as Speedy, it clearly cannot effectively prevent the spread of HIV—which is a thousandth of the size. Despite repeated and conclusive evidence showing that condoms available in the United States don't have holes (if they do, the entire batch is discarded), and that the real reason for error is improper use, not product defect. Why kNOw? continues to teach youth that condoms are useless, apparently believing that this will discourage them from having sex. Predictably, research suggests that young people who believe condoms don't work simply use protection less often—they don't engage in sex at a lesser rate.

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    Post by Forgiveness Man Mon Sep 27, 2010 5:30 pm

    It has not been shown to not be effective. Kids who remain abstinent don't get pregnant. xD I dare any study to find me people who have not had sex who contracted sexually transmitted diseases that condoms would've prevented. xD It's not a school's responsibility to sponsor irresponsibility.

    And the argument "they will do it anyway" is the weakest cop-out I ever heard. It's a lame excuse to give kids a free pass for irresponsibility. Imagine if we used that excuse to justify everything else. It's laziness plain and simple. Abstinence-only is the easiest thing in the world to justify. It's just not a popular idea, so when not being abstinent leads to trouble, people point the finger at abstinence as the cause of the problem. It's lame. Grow up America and stop pointing fingers cause you don't like the consequences YOUR decisions led to. If you choose to have sex, you can choose to wear a condom. Stop blaming the people telling you to control yourself when your behavior lands you in hot water.
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    Post by RiteDiva Mon Sep 27, 2010 7:33 pm

    It gets taught because the government demands it be taught, because all of the rich "conservative" politicians and 'community activists' running the country in their spare time are having adulterous affairs (and closeted gay liaisons) want to stick their fingers in their ears and go "LA LA LA...I don't hear you!" when they are confronted with the unsurprising truth that the average teenager isn't doing as they say, but rather as they themselves do.
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    Post by Forgiveness Man Mon Sep 27, 2010 7:52 pm

    RiteDiva wrote:It gets taught because the government demands it be taught, because all of the rich "conservative" politicians and 'community activists' running the country in their spare time are having adulterous affairs (and closeted gay liaisons) want to stick their fingers in their ears and go "LA LA LA...I don't hear you!" when they are confronted with the unsurprising truth that the average teenager isn't doing as they say, but rather as they themselves do.
    That's hogwash. But since as you point out, the average teenager isn't listening to what they say, than any sex ed program is as good as another. Razz They all fall on death ears.
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    Post by Marc™ Mon Sep 27, 2010 9:32 pm

    Abstinence only rhetoric has always been effective. We all know that kids are easily shamed, scorned and scared into keeping their pants on.
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    Post by Alan Smithee Mon Sep 27, 2010 10:18 pm

    Forgiveness_Man wrote:It has not been shown to not be effective. Kids who remain abstinent don't get pregnant. FORGIVENESS MAN I dare any study to find me people who have not had sex who contracted sexually transmitted diseases that condoms would've prevented. FORGIVENESS MAN It's not a school's responsibility to sponsor irresponsibility.

    And the argument "they will do it anyway" is the weakest cop-out I ever heard. It's a lame excuse to give kids a free pass for irresponsibility. Imagine if we used that excuse to justify everything else. It's laziness plain and simple. Abstinence-only is the easiest thing in the world to justify. It's just not a popular idea, so when not being abstinent leads to trouble, people point the finger at abstinence as the cause of the problem. It's lame. Grow up America and stop pointing fingers cause you don't like the consequences YOUR decisions led to. If you choose to have sex, you can choose to wear a condom. Stop blaming the people telling you to control yourself when your behavior lands you in hot water.

    Why are you even mentioning raincoats Razz ? Don't you think that "all birth control is fairly dumb to begin with?" Why do you even bring that into the equation? You should have stopped at "just don't have sex and you won't get pregnat or contract an STD." Why do you imply that using something you call "dumb" is responsible behavior?
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    Post by RiteDiva Mon Sep 27, 2010 11:57 pm

    Forgiveness_Man wrote:That's hogwash. But since as you point out, the average teenager isn't listening to what they say, than any sex ed program is as good as another. Razz They all fall on death ears.

    Your attitude is hogwash. You assume that there is only one viable option—yours.

    Everyone (kids too) knows abstinence is full proof from STDs and pregnancy. Just like everyone knows that if they stay locked in their house 24/7, they won't get hit by a train. But not everyone is interested in taking the chaste route, or being a virgin all the way up until their wedding night, ok? Because of that, there SHOULD be education (not based on scare tactics to manipulate folks into abstaining) provided to those who have decided for themselves that they are interested in being sexually active (OR are pondering their options) on how to be safe(r).

    "Abstinence only" education is ridiculous and dangerous, because not everyone is GOING to choose that path...nor should they have to if they'd rather not. It's unfortunate that some would prefer to throw people who choose to be sexually active to the wolves and let them try and save themselves, rather than to provide tips on how they can follow their choice in a way that will lower any risk they may face. You don't limit or slant information to mind control the masses. That is fascism.
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    Post by RedBedroom Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:07 am

    Abstinence only is foolish. But I think that schools should have guest speakers that have suffered effects from having sex early.

    What "worked" for me in high school was guest speakers with AIDS. Husband and wife duo and I was so scared after hearing their story.

    All that said, I am not a fan of anybody putting too much faith in school generated sex ed. Parents need to discuss it at home.
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    Post by JM130ELM Tue Sep 28, 2010 3:25 am

    I see abstinence-only Sex Ed. as having this connotation of "if you're going to have sex, then we're not going to tell you how to protect yourself. So go ahead and catch an STD or get pregnant, so that we can point at you the next time we try and manipulate a kid into not doing it." Abstinence-only Sex Ed. isn't Sex Ed, it's right wing religious conservative propaganda bullshit.
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    Post by Nystyle709 Tue Sep 28, 2010 6:02 pm

    RiteDiva wrote:

    Your attitude is hogwash. You assume that there is only one viable option—yours.

    LOL. good one

    Everyone (kids too) knows abstinence is full proof from STDs and pregnancy. Just like everyone knows that if they stay locked in their house 24/7, they won't get hit by a train. But not everyone is interested in taking the chaste route, or being a virgin all the way up until their wedding night, ok? Because of that, there SHOULD be education (not based on scare tactics to manipulate folks into abstaining) provided to those who have decided for themselves that they are interested in being sexually active (OR are pondering their options) on how to be safe(r).

    "Abstinence only" education is ridiculous and dangerous, because not everyone is GOING to choose that path...nor should they have to if they'd rather not. It's unfortunate that some would prefer to throw people who choose to be sexually active to the wolves and let them try and save themselves, rather than to provide tips on how they can follow their choice in a way that will lower any risk they may face. You don't limit or slant information to mind control the masses. That is fascism.


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    Post by Forgiveness Man Tue Sep 28, 2010 6:21 pm

    alan smithee wrote:
    Why are you even mentioning raincoats Razz ? Don't you think that "all birth control is fairly dumb to begin with?" Why do you even bring that into the equation? You should have stopped at "just don't have sex and you won't get pregnat or contract an STD." Why do you imply that using something you call "dumb" is responsible behavior?
    Simple! The claim is that schools not providing info condoms causes STDs. I am refuting that claim by promoting the idea that if you want to have sex, you still have the freedom to use a condom, and thus you can't blame the school if you don't use one and get a disease as a result. If you're adult enough to have sex, you're adult enough to know whether or not you want to use a condom regardless of what you were taught at school. People want to shift blame to the schools for abstinence only programs but the truth is, these people themselves are to blame and they know it.
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    Post by Alan Smithee Tue Sep 28, 2010 8:29 pm

    Sorry, not buying it. You want to say that people need to take personal responsibility for their actions but you don’t want to give them the tools to help make the responsible choice. Yeah, they’ve got the freedom to use a condom but the knowledge of it’s proper use isn’t instinctual. It has to be taught. Do you know how to use one? And if you do…WHY do you know? Don’t even bother telling me that you don’t need to know how to use one because you think they’re dumb in the first place. That’s not the point and you know it. The point is in order to make good decisions, people need knowledge.

    As to your rebuttal, that you’re refuting the argument of blaming a school for the possible consequences of an abstinence only curriculum, I may have missed it but I don’t think anyone here said that. Besides, what’s taught in public schools is a reflection of the community. If people want to blame the school they should probably start by looking in the mirror.
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    Post by el Rio Tue Sep 28, 2010 9:01 pm

    Abstinence only is a failed idea dreamed up by old fools too far removed from their own youth and reality. Responsible sex ed information should include Abstinence as well as other forms of birth control/prevention of STDs. I see kids in our rural area who still have little access to useful information. These kids need to be taught sex ed because there are far too many ignorant and/or irresponsible parents that won't do their job. They're usually the same fools who bitch about sex ed being taught till little Johnny comes home with the Clap. Then they fault the school for not teaching. People who want their kids to remain ignorant and vulnerable for religious or socially conservative reasons should have the right to exempt their kids from such education. Those that exempt their kids should never be allowed any form of public assistance once their kids come home pregnant or diseased. I'm old enough and experienced enough to have good reasons for these opinions. I've raised seven sons and did my best to educate them how to be responsible. Opinions may differ but this one is mine.
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    Post by CatEyes10736 Wed Sep 29, 2010 5:19 am

    "Abstinence-only" sex ed is an unrealistic farce. These are the kids who sit through it being drummed into their heads how immoral and dangerous sex is, later give in to their natural impulses and then feel dirty or guilty about it, and in the meantime wind up with pregnancy and VD scares because they were DELIBERATELY not thoroughly educated on how to safeguard themselves. Rather than give its pupils the FACTS about how to better protect themselves should they CHOOSE to have sex, "Abstinence-only" takes this idealistic and sex-negative approach...speaking about fairytale courtships out of a Disney prince/princess cartoon on one hand, and venereal diseases and unwanted pregnancies on the other.

    All Sex Ed classes should stress waiting until you know you're ready, abstinence being a viable option and the safest route to take (and from what I have seen, the vast majority DO), but NONE should instill that as the "only" reasonable choice. We all know abstaining is 100%, now give the lowdown on how to protect oneself if they choose to have sex. Don't sugarcoat, skew or try and make the decision for people. Put all the facts and options on the friggin table and let people decide for themselves what they wanna do.

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    Post by Forgiveness Man Wed Sep 29, 2010 1:18 pm

    alan smithee wrote:Sorry, not buying it. You want to say that people need to take personal responsibility for their actions but you don’t want to give them the tools to help make the responsible choice. Yeah, they’ve got the freedom to use a condom but the knowledge of it’s proper use isn’t instinctual. It has to be taught. Do you know how to use one? And if you do…WHY do you know? Don’t even bother telling me that you don’t need to know how to use one because you think they’re dumb in the first place. That’s not the point and you know it. The point is in order to make good decisions, people need knowledge.

    As to your rebuttal, that you’re refuting the argument of blaming a school for the possible consequences of an abstinence only curriculum, I may have missed it but I don’t think anyone here said that. Besides, what’s taught in public schools is a reflection of the community. If people want to blame the school they should probably start by looking in the mirror.

    I'd know how to use one cause I live in 21st century America. That's my point. Razz I don't buy that kids don't know how to use a condom without schools telling them.

    People blame the school all the time. FORGIVENESS MAN I agree that they should look in the mirror, but they don't. They choose to have unprotected sex but then wanna blame the school for telling them not to have sex as the reason they got an STD.

    Abstinence is hardly a dream. I think the dream is actually the other side. Wink
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    Post by GrayWolf Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:07 pm

    Tell them not to have sex at all. Then when they do it and get knocked up, can ship them off to a wayward school for unwed mothers to secretly have their babies in shame and have them snatched out of their arms and thrown into an orphanage. 1950s America was so much fun! Razz
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    Post by Forgiveness Man Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:10 pm

    GrayWolf wrote:Tell them not to have sex at all. Then when they do it and get knocked up, can ship them off to a wayward school for unwed mothers to secretly have their babies in shame and have them snatched out of their arms and thrown into an orphanage. 1950s America was so much fun! Razz

    It must also be so much fun to live in a world where it's either 1950's or "What I want, when I want it." Wink
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    Post by el Rio Wed Sep 29, 2010 2:18 pm

    "I'd know how to use one cause I live in 21st century America. That's my point. Razz I don't buy that kids don't know how to use a condom without schools telling them.

    People blame the school all the time. FORGIVENESS MAN I agree that they should look in the mirror, but they don't. They choose to have unprotected sex but then wanna blame the school for telling them not to have sex as the reason they got an STD.

    Abstinence is hardly a dream. I think the dream is actually the other side." Wink[/quote]

    I know a lot of kids who have very little functional knowledge of how and where to get condoms. There is an additional need for schools to teach this too and that is; School is the only place a lot of kids get valid information. Learning about condoms in school gives the information the credit of coming from a reliable source and not some BS a kid hears from his idiot buddy.

    How often do you interact with teenage kids on an in depth level? Being in the 21th century means nothing to a poor kid with limited access to facts.
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    Post by Forgiveness Man Wed Sep 29, 2010 4:45 pm

    ^^^^You lost me at school being the only place kids get valid information. Please, that's one of the worst places for valid info these days.

    Oh please, even the poorest kids have plenty of access to facts in modern day America. If kids need to be told to wear a condom and how to wear it, they aren't old enough or mature enough to deal with the emotional effects of sex. If they are totally clueless about condoms without their school telling them, than they shouldn't have sex. I do not buy that most kids do not have functional knowledge of how and where to get condoms. I just don't. If kids are so sheltered that they don't know about condoms, I doubt they'd even be in school in the first place.
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    Post by Impact Wed Sep 29, 2010 9:49 pm

    Forgiveness_Man wrote:It has not been shown to not be effective. Kids who remain abstinent don't get pregnant. xD I dare any study to find me people who have not had sex who contracted sexually transmitted diseases that condoms would've prevented. xD It's not a school's responsibility to sponsor irresponsibility.

    And the argument "they will do it anyway" is the weakest cop-out I ever heard. It's a lame excuse to give kids a free pass for irresponsibility. Imagine if we used that excuse to justify everything else. It's laziness plain and simple. Abstinence-only is the easiest thing in the world to justify. It's just not a popular idea, so when not being abstinent leads to trouble, people point the finger at abstinence as the cause of the problem. It's lame. Grow up America and stop pointing fingers cause you don't like the consequences YOUR decisions led to. If you choose to have sex, you can choose to wear a condom. Stop blaming the people telling you to control yourself when your behavior lands you in hot water.

    It's even more lame to want to punish people, or set them up to fail, for opting to make their own independent choices. As has been stated already, not everyone WANTS to abstain. These people shouldn't be withheld knowledge that can help protect themselves as punishment for not following the beat and path guidelines of "abstinence only" propaganda. And that's basically the connotation behind what all this is: punishment. As if to say, "if you don't choose this route, then may you catch whatever is out there."
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    Post by Dan70 Sat Oct 02, 2010 2:20 am

    "Abstinence Only" Sex Ed. can't even be called "Sex EDUCATION." It's instead "Don't Have Sex Because Sex Is Wrong and Because We Said So". A Sexual Education course that doesn't put all the facts, statistics and options on the table is a farce. It's like a Math class that only teaches basic addition, deliberately ignoring subtraction, multiplication, division, algebra, and so on.
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    Post by Forgiveness Man Sat Oct 02, 2010 8:21 am

    Impact wrote:It's even more lame to want to punish people, or set them up to fail, for opting to make their own independent choices. As has been stated already, not everyone WANTS to abstain. These people shouldn't be withheld knowledge that can help protect themselves as punishment for not following the beat and path guidelines of "abstinence only" propaganda. And that's basically the connotation behind what all this is: punishment. As if to say, "if you don't choose this route, then may you catch whatever is out there."

    If it's punishment, it's nature dealing it out, not the schools. xD But seriously, nobody is setting ANYBODY up to fail. If they don't want to abstain, they have all the knowledge at their fingertips for what the options are. Unless they are some 12 year old kid, in which case they shouldn't be having sex in the first placer, they have NO excuse for not knowing. They are not being "withheld" any knowledge. It's the 21st century for crying out loud. People know what the frick a condom is, where to get them, and how to use them.(At least as good as any school is gonna show you with a banana) Abstinence only is not propaganda, it's just facts that horny people want to ignore. If you want to have sex, you be responsible enough to get your own facts like a real adult. If you're not responsible enough to even get your own condom facts, you're just proving the point that you ain't ready for sex.

    It's just so laughable to hear kids yammer on about how adult and "ready for sex" they are when they can't even be responsible enough to know the first thing about condoms(in the 21st century no less) without the teacher giving them one and telling them how to use it. Give me a break.
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    Post by Alan Smithee Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:34 am

    You've still managed to side step the fact that on one thread you state that all contraception is "dumb" but here you criticize if some one isn't mature enough to use a condom.
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    Post by Forgiveness Man Sat Oct 02, 2010 10:30 am

    alan smithee wrote:You've still managed to side step the fact that on one thread you state that all contraception is "dumb" but here you criticize if some one isn't mature enough to use a condom.

    I haven't sidestepped at all. It's just not relevant to my current point at all. My points happily complement each other.
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    Post by Nystyle709 Sat Oct 02, 2010 10:34 am

    alan smithee wrote:You've still managed to side step the fact that on one thread you state that all contraception is "dumb" but here you criticize if some one isn't mature enough to use a condom.

    See how stupid his logic is when it's gets thrown back at him? He makes himself look ridiculous in every thread.

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