What do you think, should public schools allow clubs specifically targeted towards certain religious groups?

Why not? Students should not be punished for having religious convictions. SeparatIng Church and state means allowing Religion, not banning it. Kids shoul definitely be allowed to have religious clubs like any other theme. Anything else is blatant discrimination.

Kral wrote:

I don't think any kind of religious clubs should take place at public school. School's just not the place for it. Just imagine the fallout that could happen if a Jewish club and a Muslim club wanted to use the gym at the same time.

No worse than if clubs were formed for rival sports teams or franchises.

Absolutely NOT. Churches have their own social groups for things like that. Public school isn't the place to observe religion.

Public school is the place to observe anything. If one club is allowed, so is another. As long as no laws or being violated or anything illegal being promoted, there's really NO grounds to ban religious clubs from forming in a public school unless you ban clubs altogether. ANY group can be said to be able to be formed elsewhere and that it's inappropriate to form them in public school. So either allow religious clubs or ban clubs.

Allowing students to have religious clubs in public schools has the potential to create disastrous debates that will cause nothing but a headache for the administrators who have to listen to it. Because of Separation of Church and State, students are technically allowed to have these clubs as long as they don't force others to join them. The problem is that you'll never be able to please everyone. Different organizations will wonder why the school is recognizing one and not another, or why certain clubs seemed to be favored. Basically you're starting a religious riot in a high school when it's not even worth it.

^^^^One cannot live life a slave to touchy and irrational anti-religious groups.

I don't much like the idea of anything religious in schools, but so long as no one is being forced to join these clubs and they aren't infringing on anyone else's space, then I say go ahead and let them be.

They've been permitted (under certain circumstances) since 1984 so why is everyone getting their bowels in an uproar?

Quote :

The Equal Access Act was passed in the Senate with a vote of 88 to 11; it passed in the House 337 to 77; it became law on 1984-AUG-11. The law applies only to public secondary schools which:

Receive Federal financial assistance.
Already have "a limited open forum." i.e. at least one student-led, non-curriculum club that meets outside of class time. Chess, model building, political, religious and many similar types of clubs are considered to be non-curriculum based. A French club might be considered to be curriculum related.

The language of the Act is quite clear. Such schools must allow additional clubs to be organized, as long as:

Attendance is voluntary.
The group is student-initiated.
The group is not sponsored by the school itself, by teachers, by other school employees, or by the government. This means that such employees cannot promote, lead or participate in a meeting. However, a teacher or other school employee can be assigned to a group for "custodial purposes."
The group is not disruptive. i.e. it "does not materially and substantially interfere with the orderly conduct of educational activities within the school."
Persons from the community may not "direct, conduct, control, or regularly attend activities of student groups."

The school is required to treat all of its student-led non-curriculum clubs equally:

Each club must have equal access to meeting spaces, the PA system, school periodicals, bulletin board space, etc.
School officials have the right to monitor meetings.
Officials can require all clubs to follow a set of rules, including non-discrimination policies. However, a court has ruled that religious clubs can discriminate against persons of other faiths in their selection of officers.
The school may limit meeting times and locations, but must apply rules equally to all groups.
The school may prohibit people from the community from attending student clubs. However, they must apply this rule equally to all groups.

Thus, if the school receives financial support from the Federal government and already has one or more student-initiated, extracurricular clubs on campus, then additional clubs cannot be prohibited. One exception would be in the case of a group that can be shown to be disruptive to the educational process. The Equal Access Act and the U.S. Constitution itself protects students' right to the enjoyment of free association and speech.

alan smithee wrote:

They've been permitted (under certain circumstances) since 1984 so why is everyone getting their bowels in an uproar?

Yeah, I went to high school in the '60s and we had clubs. Looking at my yearbook, seems Armed Forces was the most popular with the guys (I was in it). But we had Jazz, Art, Slide Rule? and Bible Club. Of course there was no Gay Str8 Alliance back then, since homosexuality was a clinical and legal perversion in Missouri.

And the 1984 law that lets you have a religious group also guarantees your gay group as well.

As long as the school is not coercing students into joining them. The Supreme Court has never ruled religious clubs in public schools to be unconstitutional, so, by definition, they are constitutional. That's the end of that argument.

I am to understand, based on the opinions expressed by the opposition, that we should not have religious clubs in public schools because that might spark debate that schools are not capable of managing. That some administrations may not be able to handle this type of debate is an indictment of the quality of those administrations, not a legitimate reason to for disallowing religious clubs in schools.

It goes without saying (but I'm saying it anyway) that schools need to ensure all faiths have equal opportunity. This doesn't mean that a school has to have a club for every religion, since many faiths won't want a club or won't have enough people to start a club. It simply means having consistent guidelines for what it takes to become a club and applying those equally. Heck, no reason there can't be an atheist club too.

I think such meetings should be part of a church and not in school. But, then again, sometimes, if kids want a neutral venue for Christian studies, being allowed the meeting area in schools would be a good thing. But, then all student created groups should also be allowed.

My son is in sixth, and in his Jr. High school, they recently told a group of girls they could not have a book club that they created and do it at school. That really surprised me, but I see it to a point. It was a group of friends who created the group, so school officials probably saw it as a potential for some girls to not be welcomed.

^^^^In their attempt to force inclusion, they end up being discriminatory.

I thought schools are supposed to prepare kids for the real world. In the real world, kids are going to face not being included in some things. I don't see why schools need to shelter them from this by making them think that they can get into any group their heart desires. IMO, it's just setting up a bunch of unprepared people with a ridiculously high sense of entitlement.

Chris wrote:

What do you think, should public schools allow clubs specifically targeted towards certain religious groups?

As long as they are equal oppertunity about it, then I say yes. The problem is, you only ever seem to see "Christian" clubs at schools of this type. You very rarely ever see a "Muslim" club or a "Hindu" club, and when/if you do, you would no doubt get a HUGE number of complaints and borderline racist attacks from the "Christian right" about how such a thing is inappropriate. Basically, if it's not "Christian" it's wrong (as far as they are concerned). So I say, you can't have it both ways. If such a school allows and tolorates clubs of all religions equally, then I see no problem with it. The minute some right wing group comes out to condemn the prescence of a "terrorist" club on school grounds, that's when the school should outlaw Christian groups as well. All or nothing. It's really that simple!

Forgiveness_Man wrote:

I thought schools are supposed to prepare kids for the real world.

Yeah, I thought that too when I was 12. After I grew up I realized that school was really just about getting a piece of paper which says that you have some basic knowledge which suggests that you are somewhat worthy to continue your education in college or get a job making more than minimum wage. When is the last time you did an algebraic equation, cited the atomic number of an element on the periodic table, differentiated between the subject and the predicate or wrote in cursive? These all sound like pretty basic things but for most people today I'm guessing it's been a while since they've done any of these things. The education institution in American is not (and never has been) about preparing people for "the real world". If if you are going to argue that it is, the you shouldn't have a problem with them teaching actual sex education and not the unrealistic concept of "abstinence only" (which nobody practices in the real world).

Forgiveness_Man wrote:

In the real world, kids are going to face not being included in some things. I don't see why schools need to shelter them from this by making them think that they can get into any group their heart desires. IMO, it's just setting up a bunch of unprepared people with a ridiculously high sense of entitlement.

This argument only works if it didn't involved breaking the law. Unfortunately, the law recognizes something called "equal rights" which is outlined in the Constitution of the US. If it is unlawful for public establishments to exclude someone based on race, sex, sexual orientation or religious affiliation, then it is unlawful for a school to do so on the same grounds.

I think they should be allowed, provided that there are clear guidelines that apply to every club and they are nondiscriminatory. I also think they should be before or after school, or during free period or whatever.


When it's a struggle to keep kids active and involved in anything, banning clubs seems like a bad idea, and IMO if you ban one, you need to ban them all.

thepossiblepolice wrote:

I think they should be allowed, provided that there are clear guidelines that apply to every club and they are nondiscriminatory. I also think they should be before or after school, or during free period or whatever.


When it's a struggle to keep kids active and involved in anything, banning clubs seems like a bad idea, and IMO if you ban one, you need to ban them all.

I agree with that last part. So many school kids aren't interested in anything school-related that I would hesitate to take a school-sanctioned club away from them (so long as it wasn't inflammatory, disruptive or infringing.)

Chris wrote:

thepossiblepolice wrote:

I think they should be allowed, provided that there are clear guidelines that apply to every club and they are nondiscriminatory. I also think they should be before or after school, or during free period or whatever.


When it's a struggle to keep kids active and involved in anything, banning clubs seems like a bad idea, and IMO if you ban one, you need to ban them all.

I agree with that last part. So many school kids aren't interested in anything school-related that I would hesitate to take a school-sanctioned club away from them (so long as it wasn't inflammatory, disruptive or infringing.)

When I was a kid I lived in a really small town, and we had "The Good News Club" at school. Only it wasn't AT the school, a bus came, picked us up, and took us to a nearby house, where we sat around, ate snacks and heard "the good news"...Then the bus took us all back to school. I can't believe, in hindsight, that my parent's though that would be a better use of my school hours than actually learning the things that you are supposed to learn at school. I don't think something like that would ever happen these days. Then again, I live in a city on the West Coast...I have no idea what happens in the Bible Belt.