^^^^Sorry dude, my interpretation is just fine. It's yours that's screwy. Suicide is self murder; that's the size of it. I've proven my point. Glorifying God with your body is an across the board thing. You're right, you shall not murder is the correct translation. And suicide IS self-murder. Thus, it clearly falls under it. People who kill often have their justifications for why it is not murder(and thus not sinful). I think people just try to rationalize sin by using whatever loopholes they can find to convince themselves that their behavior is not sinful. Suicide is no different. "OH, suicide is okay because it isn't murder." "Killing this gay guy isn't a sin because he's scum and God hates him." "It's okay to rob this guy cause he has too much money." There's always a rationalization for why behavior doesn't meet the definition for established sin.

And actually, you make the claim, not me. I said that my view was that suicide was sinful, answering the question. Your claim is that Scripture permits it. Thus, the burden of proof falls on you, especially since you brought up Scripture.

Also, I am not "Bible alone" type either. So unless you actually find the Bible PERMITTING suicide in a verse, you can't invalidate my views because I am not a Bible alone type. The Church I believe to be the Biblically established one and only true Church classifies Suicide as a Mortal Sin; that's all I need to know without a shadow of a doubt that it's a sin. So in terms of MY claim, which is what I believe, you can't disprove me unless you show me some Biblical evidence permitting suicide.

But of course, suicide IS murder, so I've already shown that the Bible forbids it. You're clinging to some courtbook definition to try and evade what Christianity has taught since it's founding.

I would be curious to see you argue how suicide could ever be in line with God's will. But of course, I think I've also been reminded of the wisdom of some of my earlier policies. Good day.

Forgiveness_Man wrote:

^^^^Sorry dude, my interpretation is just fine. It's yours that's screwy.

According to YOU alone. Forgive me if I'm not convinced "Forgiveness Man".

Forgiveness_Man wrote:

Suicide is self murder; that's the size of it. I've proven my point.

You obviously haven't because you've provided no "proof" (biblical or otherwise) that backs up your assertion. There is no such thing as "self murder" because such a phrase in itself is an oxymoron.

Forgiveness_Man wrote:

Glorifying God with your body is an across the board thing. You're right, you shall not murder is the correct translation. And suicide IS self-murder. Thus, it clearly falls under it.

One cannot murder themselves because that defies the definition of murder. And since you've shown no biblical scripture that defines suicide as murder you have not proven your case. Until you can do that, your opinion alone is no more valid than mine.

Forgiveness_Man wrote:

People who kill often have their justifications for why it is not murder(and thus not sinful). I think people just try to rationalize sin by using whatever loopholes they can find to convince themselves that their behavior is not sinful.

You're right, people that kill do often try to justify it to themselves. In some cases it's justified while in others it is not. What you "think" about another's justifications is irrelevant. The issue is you have not demonstrated that suicide is not justified using the bible as your reference. There are no "loopholes" in the bible (unless you believe there to be). Something is either a sin or it's not, and I believe that ALL sins are clearly spelled out in plain english in ANY modern translation of the bible. Anything that requires extrapolation or the intepretation of a church to declair it to be a sin is merely the influence of "man", not "God". That's the problem with the Catholic church and with organized religion in general. It has less to do with what the bible actually "says", and more to do with how religious leaders intepret it for the layman.

Forgiveness_Man wrote:

Suicide is no different. "OH, suicide is okay because it isn't murder." "Killing this gay guy isn't a sin because he's scum and God hates him." "It's okay to rob this guy cause he has too much money." There's always a rationalization for why behavior doesn't meet the definition for established sin.

True, but again you must first establish that suicide is declaired a sin in the bible. You haven't done that yet.

Forgiveness_Man wrote:

And actually, you make the claim, not me. I said that my view was that suicide was sinful, answering the question. Your claim is that Scripture permits it. Thus, the burden of proof falls on you, especially since you brought up Scripture.

Sorry you got that completely bass ackwards my friend! One does not need to prove that something "doesn't" exist. If you are going to say "suicide is a sin", then provide no reference backing up that claim, the burden of proof lies with you. All you've said is that suicide was sinful. Prove it? According to what scripture? You've given vague scriptural references that in truth have nothing to do with suicide at all. You are twisting the bible to support a belief that you've probably been taught by others. If a sin is not mentioned in the bible as being a sin, then it is NOT a sin! It's really that simple.

Forgiveness_Man wrote:

Also, I am not "Bible alone" type either. So unless you actually find the Bible PERMITTING suicide in a verse, you can't invalidate my views because I am not a Bible alone type. The Church I believe to be the Biblically established one and only true Church classifies Suicide as a Mortal Sin; that's all I need to know without a shadow of a doubt that it's a sin. So in terms of MY claim, which is what I believe, you can't disprove me unless you show me some Biblical evidence permitting suicide.

And that's why suicide MUST be a sin right, because your church told you so! I thought as much. :biggrin: But it might have been easier if you had just said that in the beginning rather than try to act like it was actually in the bible. I'm very much aware that "the chruch" values the intepretation of modern men moreso than the words written in the bible. But the reality of the situation is that the only reason you believe suicide to be a sin is that the Catholic Church says it's a mortal sin. That may be good enough for you, but it isn't to me. I go off of what Jesus says, not the Pope! And if God didn't say it in the Old Testament, and Jesus didn't say it in the New Testament, it ain't true!

Forgiveness_Man wrote:

But of course, suicide IS murder, so I've already shown that the Bible forbids it. You're clinging to some courtbook definition to try and evade what Christianity has taught since it's founding.

But that's just it, you HAVEN'T shown that the bible forbids it. I'm going by the only definition that I have available to me (the dictionary definition). And if you are going to charge that the definition of murder is somehow "different" when bible scholars translated the bible than it is today, then SHOW ME.

Forgiveness_Man wrote:

I would be curious to see you argue how suicide could ever be in line with God's will. But of course, I think I've also been reminded of the wisdom of some of my earlier policies. Good day.

I don't think that God's will is relevant to most common everyday occurances. I think that it is not "God's will" for different religions to co-exist or for different intepretations of Christianity to exist. Yet, there it is! Is war, and natural disasters that kill millions of people (both good and bad) part of God's will? No. But they do infact exist don't they. If God's will was that his message be clear to everyone, why then do we disagree on something that both of us probably consider very basic and fundamental? How is that in line with God's will? The devil is the ruler of this earth.

I can accept that we have different religious beliefs and practices and I can agree to disagree with you. You believe that suicide is a sin based on what your religion teaches you and I don't. They are both valid opinions and I can respect that. That's all you had to say. You're entitled to your opinion as am I. If your beliefs come from sources other than the bible that is one thing, but don't try to tell me that the bible says something that it doesn't. Don't provide me a scripture that has nothing to do with the subject at hand and one that requires extrapolation and intepretation from "the chruch" in order to make it a sin because that is not my religion, it's yours. The bible says what it says! How YOU intepret it is completely up to you. Good day.

MandyPerfumeGirl wrote:

It's one person's life and they have that choice - it's their life, they should do what they want and what they need to do.

If they live alone and have nobody, that would be one thing...but let's say the person in question has children...is it really irrelevant how a 10 year old can cope with his father blowing his brains out for no apparent reason? In cases where there are children, the children ARE going to traumatized for the rest of their lives and are NEVER going to get over it, what's the answer to their suffering? 'Just get over it already, it was his life so he could kill himself if he wanted to'?

I don't think that everyone who commits suicide has selfish motives. I do think that it tends to BE a selfish act. Not sure if I believe in sin or not.

It is a selfish act but I can sympathize with their pain over their selfishness if they don't have kids. If someone has children and still are selfish enough to try suicide over fighting to recover from their depression for the sake of them, my sympathy isn't going to be with them more than the kids. I went through my bouts of depression as a teenager and young 20-something, but I think my kids saved my life. Killing myself with two (now three) kids just wasn't an option, no matter how bad I didn't wanna get out of bed that day.

Impact wrote:

It is a selfish act but I can sympathize with their pain over their selfishness if they don't have kids. If someone has children and still are selfish enough to try suicide over fighting to recover from their depression for the sake of them, my sympathy isn't going to be with them more than the kids. I went through my bouts of depression as a teenager and young 20-something, but I think my kids saved my life. Killing myself with two (now three) kids just wasn't an option, no matter how bed I didn't wanna get out of bad that day.

The only person that I personally knew who committed suicide was a father of 3. Drowning in debt with an insurance policy that didn't rule out suicide...I know that he did it partially for his family, so I don't think that he was trying to be "selfish" but at the same time...$ isn't a daddy.

I've already given my opinion on the right to die thread. If you're looking to end your suffering from a terminal illness, that's one thing. Other than that, suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem. Especially if you’re running out on children. More selfish than sinful.