My morbid mood this morning continues (I been telling the doctor I need a stronger dosage, but the quack won't listen....and unfortunately I can't afford Dr. Murray....) Catholic or non-Catholic....do you believe that purgatory exists?

Of course you won't believe it if you ain't Catholic. And some of those who profess to be Catholic will believe it. And yeah, you are in a morbid mood today. Gosh, usually I'm the one who writes about death and suffering and loneliness.

Of course, Purgatory is one of the biggest and misunderstood doctrines anywhere. So many people who don't believe in it don't even know what it is they're disbelieving in. lol Kind of funny to have discussions about Purgatory and I get all of these whacko claims about what Purgatory is that I got no clue where these folk pulled their definition from.

But yeah, I believe in it, as it is actually defined, not the made up stuff. I will probably be the only one here of course. Likely will get a lot of people itching for a fight too. I get people talking. I should start a newspaper column.

No. I don't believe in Purgatory, and I can't see the sense in the idea of it. You either go to Heaven, or to Hell, you don't go to an inbetween limbo until further notice.

^^^^And so the incorrect ideas of Purgatory begin.

I think when you go to Heaven, you do have to answer for what you've done, in HEAVEN though, not Purgatory.

Supernova wrote:

I think when you go to Heaven, you do have to answer for what you've done, in HEAVEN though, not Purgatory.

Purgatory is not a limbo state though. It's not even an "inbetween" state. Answering for what you've done in heaven? Now that surprises me. We do answer for what we've done? Very interesting.

If purgatory isn't meant as an in between, what is it? Because isn't the idea that you go there first to suffer for your sins and then enter Heaven?

And rather I shouldn't say I think we pay for what we've done in Heaven, that's my mother's philosophy, and I personally, I don't know if I believe we have to answer for the things we've done in life, maybe we do have to explain ourselves, but I should think because those of us who accept Christ as Savior are supposed to be forgiven of our sins, I really don't know. Now it's been said everybody goes to Heaven first when it is determined if their name is in the Book of Life, and if it is or not, that's when it's decided if your permanent residence is a more southern region, so I'm thinking maybe what it is is when we first die, we stand before God and it's determined if we are worthy of entering Heaven or not, and if so, maybe it's like stepping in from the entrance gate onto the main floor. I don't know, but still none of it says purgatory in my book.

I believe in purgatory but not in the religious sense, but in a physical sense. A good example would be a heroin addict deciding to go cold turkey. The human body goes through "purgatory" cleanse itself of that addiction.

Supernova wrote:

If purgatory isn't meant as an in between, what is it? Because isn't the idea that you go there first to suffer for your sins and then enter Heaven?

And rather I shouldn't say I think we pay for what we've done in Heaven, that's my mother's philosophy, and I personally, I don't know if I believe we have to answer for the things we've done in life, maybe we supposed to be forgiven of our sins, I really don't know. Now it's been said everybody goes to Heaven first when it is determined if their name is in the Book of Life, and if it is or not, that's when it's decided if your permanent residence is a more southern region, so I'm thinking maybe what it is is when we first die, we stand before God and it's determined if we are worthy of entering Heaven or not, and if so, maybe it's like stepping in from the entrance gate onto the main floor. I don't know, but still none of it says purgatory in my book.

It's less "suffering" for your sins and more merely being purged of any remaining imperfections before heaven. Your ideas about paying for our sins, ironically, are not as incompatible with the teaching of Purgatory as you seem to think. It's not taught to be a state of limbo at all.

No - I don't believe in purgatory. Heaven and Hell, yes, but not purgatory.

Isn't purgatory the theme of the Jacob Marley character from A Christmas Carol? He wasn't good enough for Heaven but not quite bad enough for Hell and was stuck in limbo trying to atone for his mistakes?

Forgiveness_Man wrote:

It's less "suffering" for your sins and more merely being purged of any remaining imperfections before heaven.

I'm just curious, according to this doctrine, why would we need to be "purged" of imperfections once we die? What is the doctrine of purgatory based on? When did it become a doctrine of the Catholic Church? When exactly is "purgatory" supposed happen? Is it immediately upon death? After the ressurection? During the rapture? Or what?

If you don't feel like answering these qustions then don't bother (I won't take it personally). :biggrin: If you don't know the answers to them, then I'll drop it and won't bring it up anymore. I'm asking out of general curiosity, not because I'm trying to attack your beliefs. I really have no idea what purgatory is supposed to be beyond the movie references (or why people believe in it).

^^^^^Don't believe the movie references. The idea of "Purgatory" is good for cinema, but only after Hollywood gets done twisting it.

The teaching of Purgatory is basically a verse in Corinthians. I always forget which. I'll have to look it up. But rather than saying that it is 'proof,' of Purgatory, I say that it IS what the church teaches that Purgatory is, in the most direct terms. It's always been a Catholic doctrine, even if it was defined more clearly at a later date.

Why would we need to be purged of imperfections once we die? Because the Bible says that nothing impure will enter heaven. Can you honestly argue that when somebody dies, on average, they are completely free of attachment to sinful ways? The doctrine teaches that while they did die in the state of grace(and thus are not sent to hell), they still have some attachment to sin left. Heaven is ultimate perfection; seeing the Beatific Vision. Nothing tainted could enter the gates. So it's quite obvious why there must be a state of purging to remove imperfections before being suited up in white.

This is my personal analogy, possibly flawed(hence don't hold the church to it). You're a coin collector and you're walking along a road and you find three coins. The first is in perfect, mint condition. There is not a blemish to be found on it. It shines as vibrantly as it did the day it was minted. The second coin is beyond recognition. It's dirty, warped, and hardly even a coin anymore. Nothing you can do will fix it. But the third coin, it's a bit dirty in spots but it's still in usable condition. So you take that third coin home and clean it and polish it and stuff, and when you are done, it shines as brightly as the first coin. This is the best analogy I can think of to say what Purgatory is. Souls there are saved; they made it. They just need to be made perfect for heaven.

As for when it's supposed to happen, it's after the particular judgment. We don't really know the details of length of "time" spent there or the exact nature, but we also don't know what heaven or hell is like either. (And the latter, we don't want to know )That's about the best little ole me can do.

Forgiveness_Man wrote:

^^^^^Don't believe the movie references. The idea of "Purgatory" is good for cinema, but only after Hollywood gets done twisting it.

I believe you. Just like every other idea is usually twisted by Hollywood for entertainment's sake.

Forgiveness_Man wrote:

The teaching of Purgatory is basically a verse in Corinthians. I always forget which. I'll have to look it up. But rather than saying that it is 'proof,' of Purgatory, I say that it IS what the church teaches that Purgatory is, in the most direct terms. It's always been a Catholic doctrine, even if it was defined more clearly at a later date.

Interesting. Let me know if you can find a specific reference. In the meantime, I'll try to "google" it.

Forgiveness_Man wrote:

Why would we need to be purged of imperfections once we die? Because the Bible says that nothing impure will enter heaven. Can you honestly argue that when somebody dies, on average, they are completely free of attachment to sinful ways? The doctrine teaches that while they did die in the state of grace(and thus are not sent to hell), they still have some attachment to sin left. Heaven is ultimate perfection; seeing the Beatific Vision. Nothing tainted could enter the gates. So it's quite obvious why there must be a state of purging to remove imperfections before being suited up in white.

Without agreeing or disagree I'll simply say that this is an interesting perspective. One that I honestly hadn't considered before. Thanks for the description.

Forgiveness_Man wrote:

This is my personal analogy, possibly flawed(hence don't hold the church to it). You're a coin collector and you're walking along a road and you find three coins. The first is in perfect, mint condition. There is not a blemish to be found on it. It shines as vibrantly as it did the day it was minted. The second coin is beyond recognition. It's dirty, warped, and hardly even a coin anymore. Nothing you can do will fix it. But the third coin, it's a bit dirty in spots but it's still in usable condition. So you take that third coin home and clean it and polish it and stuff, and when you are done, it shines as brightly as the first coin. This is the best analogy I can think of to say what Purgatory is. Souls there are saved; they made it. They just need to be made perfect for heaven.

I get it. I actually understood the principle with your previous comment.

Forgiveness_Man wrote:

As for when it's supposed to happen, it's after the particular judgment. We don't really know the details of length of "time" spent there or the exact nature, but we also don't know what heaven or hell is like either. (And the latter, we don't want to know )That's about the best little ole me can do.

Curious.

Google it? lol

You not jumping on me? I like it! It's not that uncommon of a take on it though.

Curious?

Forgiveness_Man wrote:

Google it? lol

"purgatory" and "Corinthians". I'm sure it'll turn up something on the referenced scripture if there is one.

Forgiveness_Man wrote:

You not jumping on me? I like it! It's not that uncommon of a take on it though.

There is no reason to jump on you about this. This is your religious belief. I disagree with it of course because I'm not Catholic. But arguing religious beliefs are often pointless when one has a solid foundation in what they believe in. I only argue religion with people who seem ignorant of their own religion, or who aren't really sure what they believe. People that misquote the bible or try to say that one religion believes this or that when they are clearly wrong. Those types of things. But you clearly believe in Catholicism so there is no point in me arguing your interpretation of religion. I was simply curious about what purgatory is because my religion doesn't teach that and I didn't want to rely on Hollywood's intepretation.

You won't find the term if that's what you're looking for. I am sure you'd find Catholic sites. (If not, I can help. )

Yes, you don't want to rely on Hollywood's interpretation. It makes for good drama, but not good theology. But thanks for the respect.

As a born again Atheist I dont believe in a Purgatory, Heaven or Hell