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Are you a fan of stating the Pledge of Allegiance? Do you think it should be taught to kids in schools? Should schools demand the kids state it?
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captainbryce
Forgiveness Man
Alan Smithee
Tony Marino
Nystyle709
Supernova
Hyacinth Girl
CeCe
Shale
Chris
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Pledge of Allegiance -- your opinion.
Chris- Chamber Admin.
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Shale- ...is a Chamber Royal.
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This was the only protest that I was active with in high school and I still think it an archaic, often shallow dissertation of patriotism (tribalism).
I was none too happy when they added that divisive "under god" religious shit and have refused to say it ever since on the grounds of religious freedom. It is an elective that I opt out of.
And, I still see news of some kids in school protesting it today. A good start in civil awareness & disobedience.
I was none too happy when they added that divisive "under god" religious shit and have refused to say it ever since on the grounds of religious freedom. It is an elective that I opt out of.
And, I still see news of some kids in school protesting it today. A good start in civil awareness & disobedience.
CeCe- …is a Chamber DEITY.
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Trying to think of a way to put it...lol Even as a kid I thought it was odd to pledge "allegiance" to a piece of fabric. And one that is now typically made in China. The "under god" should not have been added to that as well. I understand at the time the majority of people living in the US were christian, some in deed, some in name only. But still a violation of the Constitution. I don't like the idea of revering symbols & real estate over the people living on it.
I should probably stop there lol
I should probably stop there lol
Hyacinth Girl- …is a Power Member.
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I think the Pledge helps to teach a little respect for one's country. Sure we have our share of problems, but the USA is a far better place to live than some of the other choices out there; showing some pride in your country is just one of the many small steps we can take to keep up the morale, so to say. Without that pride and respect, it opens the door to allow attitudes to deteriorate to where no one really cares anymore. Eventually, you end up with a country of wild jack-asses like some of those places over in the Middle East, or some of those rogue nations in Africa. Teaching children a little unity and respect for where they live, is not wrong
Supernova- The Book Chamber
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When I was 7 I found a Little Golden book about the U.S. Flag and in the back it had the Pledge of Allegiance and explained that when people recited it they were making a promise to be good Americans, for a 7 year old it was good enough for me. Though after a while it does become a big puzzling, but I think this is a very good explanation for it:
Nystyle709- ...is a 20G Chamber DIETY.
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I'm not a fan, but I don't have a prob with it still being taught. The under God part is really minor. The pledge honors your fellow countrymen. Nothing wrong with that.
Tony Marino- …is a Global Moderator.
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Hyacinth Girl wrote:I think the Pledge helps to teach a little respect for one's country. Sure we have our share of problems, but the USA is a far better place to live than some of the other choices out there; showing some pride in your country is just one of the many small steps we can take to keep up the morale, so to say. Without that pride and respect, it opens the door to allow attitudes to deteriorate to where no one really cares anymore. Eventually, you end up with a country of wild jack-asses like some of those places over in the Middle East, or some of those rogue nations in Africa. Teaching children a little unity and respect for where they live, is not wrong
Shale- ...is a Chamber Royal.
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Spoken like a true believer in a god. It is more than minor when it assaults your belief system.Nystyle709 wrote:... The under God part is really minor. ...
I would have prefered "under Lucifer" or "under Hermes/Prometheus." At least they stole the light from god (Zeus) and gave it to mankind.
Nystyle709- ...is a 20G Chamber DIETY.
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Opa Shale wrote:
Spoken like a true believer in a god.
Well, I do believe in God.
It is more than minor when it assaults your belief system.
The don't say the under God part.
I would have prefered "under Lucifer" or "under Hermes/Prometheus." At least they stole the light from god (Zeus) and gave it to mankind.
YOU can substitute that if you like. Do you know the pledge if alligence? Recite it out loud. Those two little words has no bearing on the ESSENTIAL meaning of the pledge. It was added in in reflection of the times. The pledge is to honor and respect your fellow countryman. If you have a problem with THAT....then I don't know what to say. A non religious person doesn't have to say the under God part. I went to school with kids who would recite the pledge without saying it. It's not that serious.
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The "under God" part doesn't bother me any more than the "In God We Trust" on our currency. It would be better if people took the words to heart. "...with liberty and justice for all."
Shale- ...is a Chamber Royal.
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Nystyle709 wrote:
Well, I do believe in God.
It is more than minor when it assaults your belief system.
The don't say the under God part.
... If you have a problem with THAT....then I don't know what to say. A non religious person doesn't have to say the under God part. I went to school with kids who would recite the pledge without saying it. It's not that serious.
I know the pledge - it was quite simple in the beginning. I view it as a verbal contract and as with a written contract you can't just ignore a couple words and expect it to remain valid.
Therefore I do not say those 'under god' parts, nor do I say any other part of this invalidated pledge.
"One nation under god, indivisible" is an oxymoron if there are ppl int that nation who do not believe in a god. The pledge itself becomes divisive.
Doing little defiances like a kid in school not reciting just one part of a pledge is not the same for an adult who seriously stands by all his words.
Hyacinth Girl- …is a Power Member.
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The only thing that seems like an oxymoron to me, is the fact that all the aethists, however vocal they may be, telling (us) Believers how stupid and fucked up our faith is, yet they have no problem continuing to live in this country that was founded on some (not all) of the principals of the Christian faith, and/or Christian influence, and reap its benefits...
Perhaps if they went and lived in one of those countries in the world where Christians are in the minority, and there's a hell of a lot more lawlessness, and evil in general, then maybe they'd spout off less about having a few churches in their neighborhoods.
Seems to me that aside from a few loose cannons here and there in the Christian faith, for the most part, those people are overall more apt to be of the persuasion that wants to keep things peaceful and in-check.
Perhaps if they went and lived in one of those countries in the world where Christians are in the minority, and there's a hell of a lot more lawlessness, and evil in general, then maybe they'd spout off less about having a few churches in their neighborhoods.
Seems to me that aside from a few loose cannons here and there in the Christian faith, for the most part, those people are overall more apt to be of the persuasion that wants to keep things peaceful and in-check.
Shale- ...is a Chamber Royal.
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Hyacinth Girl wrote: The only thing that seems like an oxymoron to me, is the fact that all the aethists, however vocal they may be, telling (us) Believers how stupid and fucked up our faith is, yet they have no problem continuing to live in this country that was founded on some (not all) of the principals of the Christian faith, and/or Christian influence, and reap its benefits...
I hope you are not one of those who believe that Washington, Jefferson and Franklin were Christians. They weren't and took pains to prevent this from being a theocracy.
And I have no problem living in this country and defying and challenging all the religious ppl who try to push their faith on me. I was born here, I am a citizen and a veteran (yes, I was proud to salute the flag of the nation I served).
I have every right not to be dismissed because I do not follow the faith of the majority.
Hyacinth Girl wrote:Perhaps if they went and lived in one of those countries in the world where Christians are in the minority, and there's a hell of a lot more lawlessness, and evil in general, then maybe they'd spout off less about having a few churches in their neighborhoods.
I lived in India, mostly Hindu nation and it was no more noticably lawless than here. I traveled thru four Muslim nations and again at the time (no wars) it was as lawful as here, tho we were sometimes treated as a minority and had the worse seat on the bus.
Hyacinth Girl- …is a Power Member.
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Opa Shale wrote:
And I have no problem living in this country and defying and challenging all the religious ppl who try to push their faith on me. I was born here, I am a citizen and a veteran. I have every right not to be dismissed because I do not follow the faith of the majority.
But your defiance comes out (in these forums) as anger and defensiveness, to the point where everything you say about Christianity is that it's pretty much a bunch of fucked up bullshit. I don't believe as you do, but there's the difference--I being a Believer don't shove your aethism in your face so vehemently as you rag on Christians.
Seems like you're the only one getting your pants in a bunch. . . oh wait---you probably aren't wearing pants. I forgot. (My bad.)
Shale- ...is a Chamber Royal.
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Hyacinth Girl wrote: ... everything you say about Christianity is that it's pretty much a bunch of fucked up bullshit...
Well, that is my belief.
You just don't get it. If you are a christian in the US you are not capable of being persecuted by non-christians because YOU ARE IN THE MAJORITY. OK, other Christians can and have persecuted you.
But Atheists, Agnostics, Humanists and other heathens or pagan believers are incapable of doing anything but grouse about being in such a minority with religious ppl who are so obtuse as to dare say a reference to a god in a secular venue is "no big deal."
As Lenin said, tell a lie often enuf and it becomes the truth. So ppl have been looking at "In God We Trust" on coins for so long they think it was always there and that it is the unanimous philosophy of all Amnericans. Well, it is not, just the majority of Americans, some of whom dare to think that we Atheists are pushing our philosophy on them by protesting it. (That is called a circular argument - FM may be in this thread but I don't even see his posts any more because of such illogic)
So, as long as reciting the pledge of allegiance remains an option I will opt out. If it becomes mandatory, I and others will sue in Federal Court because that would clearly be unconstitutional. (As well as totalitarian trying to force the populace to pledge allegiance)
Forgiveness Man- …is a Chamber Royal.
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I got no problem with the pledge or kids being taught to say it. I don't believe in forcing it, cause that's fairly senseless. If somebody (Shale, for example) doesn't care for the pledge, for any reason, I fully support his or her right not to say it. 
So yeah, if you don't like what the pledge says, don't say it. Simple as that.
So yeah, if you don't like what the pledge says, don't say it. Simple as that.
captainbryce- …is a Power Member.
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No, no and no.Chris wrote:Are you a fan of stating the Pledge of Allegiance? Do you think it should be taught to kids in schools? Should schools demand the kids state it?
1) I don't say the pledge of allegiance (nor do I believe in pledges in general). But I personally think that this pledge in particular is a very insulting lie.
2) Kids shouldn't be taught "pledges" in school because that's a form of indoctrination into a belief. The really sad thing is that most kids have no idea what it even means!
3) Some schools already do demand it, but my opinion is that they shouldn't for reasons already stated.
Impact- …is a Power Member.
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The Pledge of Allegiance is such a common, general creed that I think everyone should know it, so yes I do think schools should teach it. But I don't think kids should be made to regularly recite it.
FireIce918- …is Authorized.
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I stopped saying it a long time ago, probably in middle school. I'll stand for it, but the words lost their meaning as I grew up and faced some harsh realities.
Bluesmama- …is a Power Member.
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I am a firm supporter of the Pledge of Allegiance and even place my hand over my heart when I do it. Contrary to another poster's comment I do NOT think it's "shallow", didn't think so as a kid, either.
And, yes, I think it should be required in schools. I've long been tired of constant efforts to teach children disrespect. Are we now supposed to instill in our children that being patriotic is wrong????
Glad I'm not raising kids.
And, yes, I think it should be required in schools. I've long been tired of constant efforts to teach children disrespect. Are we now supposed to instill in our children that being patriotic is wrong????
Glad I'm not raising kids.
Shale- ...is a Chamber Royal.
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Bluesmama wrote:... Are we now supposed to instill in our children that being patriotic is wrong????...
Herr Fuhrer und das vaterlund uber alles?
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Opa Shale wrote:
Herr Fuhrer und das vaterlund uber alles?
captainbryce- …is a Power Member.
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Bluesmama wrote:I am a firm supporter of the Pledge of Allegiance and even place my hand over my heart when I do it. Contrary to another poster's comment I do NOT think it's "shallow", didn't think so as a kid, either.
And, yes, I think it should be required in schools. I've long been tired of constant efforts to teach children disrespect. Are we now supposed to instill in our children that being patriotic is wrong????
Glad I'm not raising kids.
I think it's disrespectful to indoctrinate children into untruthful pledge in the name of "patriotism" (which is of course the last refuge for scoundrels). I think the fact that so many people consider the words of the pledge of allegience to reflect the image of the United States is frankly embarrassing considering that in many ways the US as a nation ironically reflects the exact opposite of what the pledge says.
Shale- ...is a Chamber Royal.
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captainbryce wrote: ... considering that in many ways the US as a nation ironically reflects the exact opposite of what the pledge says.
Yeah, like "...With Liberty & Justice for All."
Well, we are still working on it.
captainbryce- …is a Power Member.
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Exactly!Opa Shale wrote:
Yeah, like "...With Liberty & Justice for All."
Well, we are still working on it.
Also, the "one nation under God, indivisible" part doesn't particularly hold true either! Pretty much the entire last half of the pledge is a bunch of lies. But the "with liberty and justice for all" part definetely takes the cake! In it's 234 year history, the United States has NEVER demonstrated liberty and justice "for all" (whether legally or otherwise), nor is it likely to in the near future!
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