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    'Alabama Town Gives Offenders a Choice: Jesus or Jail'

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    • Post n°1

    News 'Alabama Town Gives Offenders a Choice: Jesus or Jail'

    Post by Chris Mon Sep 26, 2011 8:43 am

    http://newsfeed.time.com/2011/09/24/alabama-town-gives-offenders-a-choice-jesus-or-jail/

    Alabama Town Gives Offenders a Choice: Jesus or Jail

    'Alabama Town Gives Offenders a Choice: Jesus or Jail' Newsfeed_jailchurch_092311

    Given the choice between jail and church, which would you choose?

    The small southern Alabama town of Bay Minette is giving non-violent offenders a chance to pick between lockup and the Lord.

    Beginning next week, Operation ROC (Restore Our Community) will have a city judge offer those found guilty of misdemeanors the choice between working off their offenses in jail and paying a fine or attending the church of their choice every week for a year. WKRG-TV in Mobile, Ala., reported 56 churches in North Baldwin County are participating in the program.

    If offenders pick church, it doesn't necessarily guarantee eternal salvation, but they can check in each week with the pastor or the police department. If the program is completed successfully their case will be dropped.

    Bay Minette Police Chief Mike Rowland says it costs his department about $75 a day to jail offenders, so the ROC program is cost-effective. "Longevity is the key," he explained in a television interview. "A 30-day drug program doesn't work. A 30-day alcohol program does not work. But long-term programs to do work, and we believe that's what'll happen here."

    Rowland says that there is no separation of church and state boundary crossed here, but to be sure, NewsFeed called Notre Dame law professor Rick Garnett, an expert on constitutional law. He said it could look to a court that government is pushing the convicted into a religious option if there is not a secular choice as well.

    "A lot of times in church-state cases, the lines aren't so crisp and clean," he told TIME. "This looks more like the kind of case where courts have been very cautious about pressuring people."
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    • Post n°2

    News Re: 'Alabama Town Gives Offenders a Choice: Jesus or Jail'

    Post by CeCe Mon Sep 26, 2011 8:45 am

    Two words: THE CONSTITUTION. This judge should be removed for even trying this.
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    • Post n°3

    News Re: 'Alabama Town Gives Offenders a Choice: Jesus or Jail'

    Post by Shale Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:36 am

    CeCe wrote:Two words: THE CONSTITUTION. This judge should be removed for even trying this.
    co-signs

    Altho I'd like to know if there are any local Satanic Churches participating.
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    • Post n°4

    News Re: 'Alabama Town Gives Offenders a Choice: Jesus or Jail'

    Post by CeCe Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:51 am

    Opa Shale wrote:
    co-signs

    Altho I'd like to know if there are any local Satanic Churches participating.


    ROFLMAO! Bet there are no mosques, temples or anything outside christianity on that list. I'd love for someone to choose that just to make a point. That he even attempted this is...stunning.
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    • Post n°5

    News Re: 'Alabama Town Gives Offenders a Choice: Jesus or Jail'

    Post by Nystyle709 Mon Sep 26, 2011 11:47 am

    LOL. Its unconstitutional, but I like it though. Even though they are non violent offenders.....I'm pretty sure they don't have any strict religious beliefs to refuse a chance NOT to go to jail. If it helps them, so be it.
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    • Post n°6

    News Re: 'Alabama Town Gives Offenders a Choice: Jesus or Jail'

    Post by Alan Smithee Mon Sep 26, 2011 2:30 pm

    Fucking ridiculous. Set aside the legal issue. Would I choose church over jail? Yeah, probably. Would it do me any good because I was there under duress? I'm going with "no". In fact, they run the risk of me recruiting some people for the other side.
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    • Post n°7

    News Re: 'Alabama Town Gives Offenders a Choice: Jesus or Jail'

    Post by Bluesmama Mon Sep 26, 2011 2:46 pm

    Nystyle709 wrote:LOL. Its unconstitutional, but I like it though. Even though they are non violent offenders.....I'm pretty sure they don't have any strict religious beliefs to refuse a chance NOT to go to jail. If it helps them, so be it.

    And the judge is giving them a CHOICE! I can't help but like it, too.
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    • Post n°8

    News Re: 'Alabama Town Gives Offenders a Choice: Jesus or Jail'

    Post by Hyacinth Girl Mon Sep 26, 2011 2:53 pm

    Being a Christian, I don't think that forcing religion on someone as a punishment is going to have all that positive of an effect--it will have the opposite and just turn them off even more to something that is intended for "good".

    They'd do better to take a lesson from Joe Arpaio--Sheriff of Maricopa County out in Arizona; he has some pretty radical ideas of punishment for criminals that I can't help but agree with, here and there:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Arpaio
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    • Post n°9

    News Re: 'Alabama Town Gives Offenders a Choice: Jesus or Jail'

    Post by CeCe Mon Sep 26, 2011 2:54 pm

    Maybe they can open up one of these in Alabama
    'Alabama Town Gives Offenders a Choice: Jesus or Jail' Logo2

    They got t-shirts & coin slots! big grin
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    • Post n°10

    News Re: 'Alabama Town Gives Offenders a Choice: Jesus or Jail'

    Post by Shale Mon Sep 26, 2011 3:18 pm

    Hyacinth Girl wrote:They'd do better to take a lesson from Joe Arpaio--Sheriff of Maricopa County out in Arizona; he has some pretty radical ideas of punishment for criminals that I can't help but agree with, here and there:

    Joe Arpaio would do better to take a lesson in human dignity.

    The man is a fascist.

    “In 1997, Amnesty International published a report on Arpaio's jails which found that Tent City is not an ‘adequate or humane alternative to housing inmates in suitable . . . jail facilities.’ Tent City is criticized by groups contending that there are violations of human and constitutional rights. Those critical of Arpaio also point out that the vast majority of inmates within Tent City have not been convicted; rather, they are merely awaiting trial. Arpaio's claim that these inmates committed crimes, they argue, reflects Arpaio's contempt for the American Constitution and the explicit right it grants to a ‘presumption of innocence.’”

    Unconstitutional Jail Conditions
    U.S. District Court Judge Neil V. Wake ruled in 2008, and again in 2010, that the Maricopa County jails violated the constitutional rights of inmates in medical and other care related issues. This ruling was a result of a lawsuit brought by the ACLU, which alleged that "Arpaio routinely abused pre-trial detainees at Maricopa County Jail by feeding them moldy bread, rotten fruit and other contaminated food, housing them in cells so hot as to endanger their health, denying them care for serious medical and mental health needs and keeping them packed as tightly as sardines in holding cells for days at a time during intake."

    In a ruling issued in October, 2010, the U.S. Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals ordered Arpaio to follow U.S. District Court Judge Neil Wake's 2008 ruling, which required Arpaio to end severe overcrowding and ensure all detainees receive necessary medical and mental health care, be given uninterrupted access to all medications prescribed by correctional medical staff, be given access to exercise and to sinks, toilets, toilet paper and soap and be served food that meets or exceeds the U.S. Department of Agriculture's dietary guidelines.

    Department of Justice Civil Rights Lawsuit
    Since March, 2009, the United States Department of Justice Civil Rights Division has been investigating Arpaio amid accusations of discrimination and unconstitutional searches and seizures. The investigation has been conducted under the authority of Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which forbids discrimination related to programs that receive federal funds. On July 7, 2009, Arpaio held a press conference, and announced that he would not cooperate with the investigation, either by providing documents, or permitting interviews with personnel. On September 2, 2010, the Department of Justice filed suit against Arpaio, to compel his cooperation with the investigation. A spokeswoman for the Justice Department stated that it was unprecedented for an agency to refuse to cooperate with a Title VI investigation, and that this is the first time the Justice Department has sued to compel access to documents and facilities. The suit was settled in June, 2011, after Arpaio allowed federal officials to interview Sheriff's office employees, and review hundreds of thousands of documents for the investigation.

    Abuse of Power
    In February 2010 Judge John Leonardo of Pima County Superior Court found that Arpaio "misused the power of his office to target members of the (Board of Supervisors) for criminal investigation."
    In 2008 a federal grand jury began an inquiry of Arpaio for abuse of power, in connection with an FBI investigation. Arpaio is being investigated for politically motivated and "bogus" prosecutions, which a former US Attorney called "utterly unacceptable". Phoenix Mayor Phil Gordon has called Arpaio's "long list" of questionable prosecutions "a reign of terror".
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    • Post n°11

    News Re: 'Alabama Town Gives Offenders a Choice: Jesus or Jail'

    Post by Hyacinth Girl Mon Sep 26, 2011 4:04 pm

    Opa Shale wrote:
    Joe Arpaio would do better to take a lesson in human dignity.

    The man is a fascist.



    There's always going to be someone, somewhere who will whine and put up a stink about everyone and everything, and cry "it's not fair!". You think Arpaio's treatment of criminals is too radical? Ask those who actually live in Arizona, like my parents, for their opinion of him, instead of relying solely on the views of some international group of people who make it their job to cry foul on everything.

    Yes, Amnesty International does do good things, but also take into consideration those residents who agree with what Arpaio's doing, for the most part.

    Bottom line: Yep, maybe it's time for criminals to have a little taste of alternative treatment for their crimes. I'm all for human dignity, but sorry--with all the red tape, laws, "rights" groups, etc., those miserable fucks end up having more rights and perks than the rest of us who aren't in jail. I'm not gonna feel sorry for some repeat offender who gets to go to college, free on my tax dollars, while I myself could be faced with selling my home to pay for my own kid's college. Fuck 'em--you're going to be a non-productive member of society and land your ass in jail, too bad; it's time you got what you deserved.

    Maybe a little fear of "alternative" punishment would do good to deter crime in general, if these assholes knew what awaited them in jail.
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    • Post n°12

    News Re: 'Alabama Town Gives Offenders a Choice: Jesus or Jail'

    Post by Bluesmama Mon Sep 26, 2011 4:37 pm

    Hyacinth Girl wrote:


    There's always going to be someone, somewhere who will whine and put up a stink about everyone and everything, and cry "it's not fair!". You think Arpaio's treatment of criminals is too radical? Ask those who actually live in Arizona, like my parents, for their opinion of him, instead of relying solely on the views of some international group of people who make it their job to cry foul on everything.

    Yes, Amnesty International does do good things, but also take into consideration those residents who agree with what Arpaio's doing, for the most part.

    Bottom line: Yep, maybe it's time for criminals to have a little taste of alternative treatment for their crimes. I'm all for human dignity, but sorry--with all the red tape, laws, "rights" groups, etc., those miserable fucks end up having more rights and perks than the rest of us who aren't in jail. I'm not gonna feel sorry for some repeat offender who gets to go to college, free on my tax dollars, while I myself could be faced with selling my home to pay for my own kid's college. Fuck 'em--you're going to be a non-productive member of society and land your ass in jail, too bad; it's time you got what you deserved.

    Maybe a little fear of "alternative" punishment would do good to deter crime in general, if these assholes knew what awaited them in jail.


    co-signs co-signs co-signs co-signs co-signs
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    • Post n°13

    News Re: 'Alabama Town Gives Offenders a Choice: Jesus or Jail'

    Post by Shale Mon Sep 26, 2011 4:51 pm

    Hyacinth Girl wrote:
    There's always going to be someone, somewhere who will whine and put up a stink about everyone and everything, and cry "it's not fair!". You think Arpaio's treatment of criminals is too radical? Ask those who actually live in Arizona, like my parents, for their opinion of him, instead of relying solely on the views of some international group of people who make it their job to cry foul on everything.
    You could also ask the ppl who live in Mississippi, Alabama or Georgia their opinion of the KKK. Just because the ppl think a certain way does not make it OK to violate human dignity and civil rights - even of those incarcerated.

    Hyacinth Girl wrote: Maybe a little fear of "alternative" punishment would do good to deter crime in general, if these assholes knew what awaited them in jail.

    Well, instead of making them broil in extreme and physically dangerous heat, maybe we can just cut off an ear or a nose. Maybe all thieves could have a hand chopped off. These were common practices in the 17th & 18th Century England when our constitution was drawn up. There is a reason the founders of this nation said no "cruel or unusual punishment."

    I am sorry for you that you agree with fascism and cruelty.

    Bluesmama wrote: co-signs co-signs co-signs co-signs co-signs

    I am sorry for you as well.
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    • Post n°14

    News Re: 'Alabama Town Gives Offenders a Choice: Jesus or Jail'

    Post by Forgiveness Man Mon Sep 26, 2011 5:02 pm

    Probably not a smart move but watching the anti-religious scurry over it should be interesting.
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    • Post n°15

    News Re: 'Alabama Town Gives Offenders a Choice: Jesus or Jail'

    Post by CeCe Mon Sep 26, 2011 5:17 pm

    Forgiveness Man wrote:
    Probably not a smart move but watching the anti-religious scurry over it should be interesting.

    The thing is the Constitution protects everyone, including the religious. No judge has the right to order anyone to engage in religious activity. What if the judge happened to be a muslim man? He can't order you to either go to jail or to an islamic mosque. But if this were the case & this judge isn't stopped it would be entirely possible. Christians would have a HUGE fit if this happened. And they would be well within their right to do so. The Constitution is very clear on this. The judge had no right to issue the order. It may have been a long time ago but our forefathers were obviously smarter than any of the people we have in power today.
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    • Post n°16

    News Re: 'Alabama Town Gives Offenders a Choice: Jesus or Jail'

    Post by Nystyle709 Mon Sep 26, 2011 7:33 pm

    CeCe wrote:

    The thing is the Constitution protects everyone, including the religious. No judge has the right to order anyone to engage in religious activity. What if the judge happened to be a muslim man? He can't order you to either go to jail or to an islamic mosque. But if this were the case & this judge isn't stopped it would be entirely possible. Christians would have a HUGE fit if this happened. And they would be well within their right to do so. The Constitution is very clear on this. The judge had no right to issue the order. It may have been a long time ago but our forefathers were obviously smarter than any of the people we have in power today.

    I re-read that article three times. The judge is not forcing or ordering them to do anything. He's giving them a choice....rather an alternative. And now that I look at the article again, he's giving them a choice to go to a church of the PRISONER'S choice. This "order" or choice isn't being available on a larger scale. It isn't being made into a state law. It isn't being made into a national law. This is a little ass town in the BIBLE BELT state of Alabama. There aren't any mosques in Alabama. 'Alabama Town Gives Offenders a Choice: Jesus or Jail' 2517814472 Is it really surprising? That's just the demographic. They're trying something out that ultimately isn't going to hurt anyone. I am by no means a religious person in the least and I can't stand the zealots, but I do recognize that some people can benefit from it. This alternative is for someone who steals a pack of gum or some shit. Whether it's effective or not remains to be seen, but ultimately, it's whatever. I don't see the big deal. They're non violent offenders. I'm actually more happy with the fact that someone is willing to try something different instead of being quick to just lock people up for the hell of it. We have a lot more serious offenders than need to be behind bars.
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    • Post n°17

    News Re: 'Alabama Town Gives Offenders a Choice: Jesus or Jail'

    Post by Forgiveness Man Mon Sep 26, 2011 7:44 pm

    @CeCe: It appears that they deserve jail anyway. He's giving them an ALTERNATIVE to what they deserve. lol If anything, that's the real issue I got with this. Don't give convicts a way out. And while you say Christians wouldn't like it if he ordered them to a mosque (which is actually NOT the equivalent of what this guy is doing), I say that the irreligious wouldn't really care if he ordered them to attend lectures preached by some rabid atheist. lol This just shows how both sides claim fowl when a judge makes a decision they don't like.

    Either way, if the convicts don't want to attend a church, they can always just choose to go to jail like they deserve to anyway for committing a crime. lol
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    • Post n°18

    News Re: 'Alabama Town Gives Offenders a Choice: Jesus or Jail'

    Post by Bluesmama Mon Sep 26, 2011 11:49 pm

    Bluesmama wrote:] co-signs co-signs co-signs co-signs co-signs

    I am sorry for you as well. [/quote]


    Okay, now I don’t know what “kind” of criminals are incarcerated in Arapaio’s tent prison. Tried to research that information and didn’t find anything yet. It is a high security prison? (Don’t laugh ~ I don’t think escape is a daily achievement there.) Does it contain serious offenders of heinous crimes, repeat drug and robbery crimes, rapes, etc.?

    If so, then cry me a river! I don’t care about their “dignity”. While I oppose serving food that is questionable, or depriving them of soap, I believe that serious convicts should NOT have access to computers, education, cell phones, cigarettes, or even exercise equipment.

    They don’t like the heat? I can’t help wondering how many of them crossed the border to deal drugs, willingly trekking through the hot desert to bring their criminal activities here?

    Prison IS punishment. Cruelty? That’s just laughable. It isn’t just to cage them from causing harm in the outside world, and too many prisons coddle these bastards.

    Going back to actual topic, these are not the kinds of criminals that this judge is imposing this ultimatum on. That would be a waste of effort in the Arizona prison. These other offenders can play the game and choose a church, which I’m sure is merely a diversion from the cell and nothing else. Or they can choose their micro-room with a steal toilet seat two feet from their heads.
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    • Post n°19

    News Re: 'Alabama Town Gives Offenders a Choice: Jesus or Jail'

    Post by Hyacinth Girl Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:47 pm

    Opa Shale wrote:

    There is a reason the founders of this nation said no "cruel or unusual punishment."


    Yes, but it's gone too far in the other direction, to the point like I said--the criminals end up with more rights and perks sometimes, than the victims.


    Opa Shale wrote:

    I am sorry for you that you agree with fascism and cruelty.

    I do not agree with fascism and cruelty, but it is human nature, Christians and non-Christians alike, to want to say yeah, sure--give 'em what they deserve. In reality, it will never happen because of society's rules, but I do greatly enjoy it when someone like Arpaio says what the rest of us are thinking.

    Personally, I think we ought to use some of these hardened criminals for experimentation in place of the innocent lab animals--that would be a great crime deterrent, and what better way to see how something reacts on a human, than to actually use one? But again--that would go over like a fart in a spacesuit.
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    • Post n°20

    News Re: 'Alabama Town Gives Offenders a Choice: Jesus or Jail'

    Post by CeCe Tue Sep 27, 2011 1:12 pm

    Like the Tuskegee Syphilis Study? There's already a long history of human experimentation.
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    • Post n°21

    News Re: 'Alabama Town Gives Offenders a Choice: Jesus or Jail'

    Post by Hyacinth Girl Tue Sep 27, 2011 2:06 pm

    CeCe wrote:Like the Tuskegee Syphilis Study? There's already a long history of human experimentation.

    That, and giving Smallpox-infested blankets to the Indians way back in the Mayflower-days. . . but for the purpose here, just the threat of something like that should--pardon the expression--put the "Fear of God" in would-be criminals to think twice before committing crimes.
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    • Post n°22

    News Re: 'Alabama Town Gives Offenders a Choice: Jesus or Jail'

    Post by Shale Tue Sep 27, 2011 2:13 pm

    Opa Shale wrote:

    I am sorry for you that you agree with fascism and cruelty.

    Hyacinth Girl wrote: I do not agree with fascism and cruelty, ...

    Personally, I think we ought to use some of these hardened criminals for experimentation in place of the innocent lab animals--that would be a great crime deterrent, and what better way to see how something reacts on a human, than to actually use one? But again--that would go over like a fart in a spacesuit.
    You just graduated from non-specific fascist to Nazi.
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    • Post n°23

    News Re: 'Alabama Town Gives Offenders a Choice: Jesus or Jail'

    Post by Hyacinth Girl Tue Sep 27, 2011 4:35 pm

    Opa Shale wrote:


    You just graduated from non-specific fascist to Nazi.

    Gee Shale, I seem to recall you recently posting something in German/Hiter-esque in mockery of something Christian in one of these threads around here---you must be a Nazi, too.

    No one on this Earth is so perfect that they don't have a nasty thought once in a while, and just because they/I do, doesn't make that person a Nazi.

    Grow up already--your self-absorbed anti-Christian/pro-Satanic church sentiment trumps anything I may spout off about, anyday.
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    • Post n°24

    News Re: 'Alabama Town Gives Offenders a Choice: Jesus or Jail'

    Post by Shale Tue Sep 27, 2011 4:44 pm

    Hyacinth Girl wrote: Gee Shale, I seem to recall you recently posting something in German/Hiter-esque in mockery of something Christian in one of these threads around here---you must be a Nazi, too...

    Show me.

    I may mock mythology when it is being pushed on me as some hard fact, but that does not relate to Hitler, who pretty much got along with the Christian church in Germany.

    But I did not propose doing medical experiments on humans in lieu of animals, which was a specific German/Nazi activity.

    Know the tree by the fruit.

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    • Post n°25

    News Re: 'Alabama Town Gives Offenders a Choice: Jesus or Jail'

    Post by Hyacinth Girl Tue Sep 27, 2011 5:16 pm

    Opa Shale wrote:

    Show me.

    I may mock mythology when it is being pushed on me as some hard fact, but that does not relate to Hitler, who pretty much got along with the Christian church in Germany.

    But I did not propose doing medical experiments on humans in lieu of animals, which was a specific German/Nazi activity.

    Know the tree by the fruit.


    So then by the same token, participating in a clinical trial would constitute experimenting on humans, and thus be considered part of the Nazi mindset? Or is it only certain instances?

    What Hitler did is in no way "Christian", regardless of how well he supposedly got along with the church--there was corruption all over the place, and probably in the church, too, because if the German church were entirely in the right mindset, they would've done their part to help see that monster not to come to power.

    And that's not a matter of Church vs. State and the Church should stay out of the government--that was a matter of human rights and the atrocities committed against the Jews and other "undesirables". Everyone has a duty and social responsibility to stand up and speak out against that sort of thing, Church or not.
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    News Re: 'Alabama Town Gives Offenders a Choice: Jesus or Jail'

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      Current date/time is Fri Nov 22, 2024 3:41 pm