HomeNearly 50 million Americans are currently without health insurance, and many with insurance are still struggling to pay their medical bills. Everyone agrees that health care should be accessible to all, but the debate still rages on as to whether a universal system would be a wise or realistic solution. Is universal health care the remedy for what ails America?
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Jason B.
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Should the U.S. Have Universal Healthcare?
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- Post n°2
Re: Should the U.S. Have Universal Healthcare?
by Forgiveness Man Sat Sep 18, 2010 10:37 am
Universal Healthcare is not the answer for America's healthcare ails. You cannot make everybody equally wealthy, just equally miserable. In other words, Universal Healthcare would merely make everyone have sucky insurance. I guess misery loves company, but it wouldn't be much of a help to those without insurance.
Besides, we've seen that the government really can not handle anything. It runs anything it touches into the ground so giving them control of healthcare is just asking for them to ruin that too.
Yes, the current system is far from perfect, but I've never been one to allow the existence of a problem to make me eager to accept anything offered as a solution. Hence I reject universal healthcare.
Besides, we've seen that the government really can not handle anything. It runs anything it touches into the ground so giving them control of healthcare is just asking for them to ruin that too.
Yes, the current system is far from perfect, but I've never been one to allow the existence of a problem to make me eager to accept anything offered as a solution. Hence I reject universal healthcare.
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Yup. We can afford it, contrary to what those sucky ass Republicans want you to believe. We waste billions of dollars on defense and other shit we don't need, yet it's a burden to take care of our own citizens. It's disgraceful.
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The problem is that Universal Healthcare won't take care of citizens. Cause we waste billions of dollars already doesn't make wasting billions of dollars more a good idea. ("We're in debt so getting into more debt is a good idea") Maybe if Nat. Healthcare would actually care for people, it'd be different, but all it will do is take a troubled healthcare system and make it worse. And no, contrary to what some may say, we can't afford it. We're in debt enough as it is. "Sucky ass Republicans?" Mature! *sighsNystyle709 wrote:Yup. We can afford it, contrary to what those sucky ass Republicans want you to believe. We waste billions of dollars on defense and other shit we don't need, yet it's a burden to take care of our own citizens. It's disgraceful.
Nystyle709- ...is a 20G Chamber DIETY.
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Forgiveness_Man wrote:The problem is that Universal Healthcare won't take care of citizens. Cause we waste billions of dollars already doesn't make wasting billions of dollars more a good idea. ("We're in debt so getting into more debt is a good idea") Maybe if Nat. Healthcare would actually care for people, it'd be different, but all it will do is take a troubled healthcare system and make it worse. And no, contrary to what some may say, we can't afford it. We're in debt enough as it is.
Explain the concept of having universal healthcare for every citizen in this damn country will wind up not taking care of the citizens. And really, they are the one who PUT us in debt in the first place and use that as an excuse to not help out those who need it. And we CAN afford it.
"Sucky ass Republicans?" Mature! *sighs
I thought you said you weren't a Republican? You said you don't suscribe to any political party. Mighty sensitive of you, lol.
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Nystyle709 wrote:
I thought you said you weren't a Republican? You said you don't suscribe to any political party. Mighty sensitive of you, lol.
No we can't afford it. The money ain't there. The CONCEPT of having everybody insured seems nice. Guess what, concepts don't take care of people. It just doesn't work. Everybody cannot be equally wealthy. If you try to have universal healthcare, all you will do is make it so MORE people have less access to medical services. The government is incompetent. They've financially ruined everything else they've touched and now we wanna give them control of healthcare? Sorry, I am against it. I'm going to agree with disagree with you.
I ain't. I just find it funny how you can't discuss things without lame insults.
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Everybody doesn't have the same amount of money (though these days a lot have the same amount of zero) and it doesn't make sense that everybody should have the same kind of health insurance. It's one of those things that in theory is highly commendable, but in practice, it sucks. Already people are being told that their insurance policies, Blue Cross, Blue Shield, etc., the ones that have been TOP for many years, are suddenly no good even though they paid for the insurance. AND how about that bright idea of theirs charging everybody a FINE if they don't? There's the proverbial gun to the head, 'take our plan or ELSE!' Gee, that doesn't sound like there could be ANYTHING wrong with it, does there? 
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^^^^Take our plan or else? Yeah, that's the direction America should go down. 
As I said, everybody being equally wealthy is wonderful in theory but it's impossible to put into practice in an imperfect world. If you make everyone equal, you can only make them equally miserable, not equally wealthy. Government has never proven itself able to help people. It's a nice concept to think we could give everybody good health insurance, but concepts don't bring results. In theory I'd love for everyone to have health insurance that provides for their needs, but that doesn't mean having an inefficient government do it is a good solution.
As I said, everybody being equally wealthy is wonderful in theory but it's impossible to put into practice in an imperfect world. If you make everyone equal, you can only make them equally miserable, not equally wealthy. Government has never proven itself able to help people. It's a nice concept to think we could give everybody good health insurance, but concepts don't bring results. In theory I'd love for everyone to have health insurance that provides for their needs, but that doesn't mean having an inefficient government do it is a good solution.
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Should be made available to all. Having said that, I have always paid for my own health care (thank you) but if I one day could not afford to pay, I like the thought that I can always get health care regardless of my economic position.
Several problems come to mind from capitalist health care. Drug companies, hospitals, the industry as a whole, makes decisions based on the profits it will provide them, and NOT the health care they will provide patients. If you've got the bucks, step right in for your liver transplant, we'll buy one for you and move you here to the front of the line.
Medicine is much cheaper in countries with socialized health care, that's a fact. Now the question to resolve would be why other people do not deserve for you to contribute towards their care. But I will say one thing, democracy has nothing to do with capitalism. The act of democracy grants each citizen a rightful place in society, yet capitalism obliterates that place after the vote.
A true capitalist would see the benefits of providing health care to those in need, and by doing so, preserve capitalism by not causing the majority vote towards socialism. Vene
Pay for the poor to have health care or they will vote it into law a few years down the line. Your choice now, they're choice later.
Btw, none of this has anything to do with the good and bad or moral and immoral aspects. This has and always will be about money. And for the US government, the preservation of raw capitalism. Taking care of the less fortunate is an investment you cannot afford to miss. Personally, I don't like it either, but I am a business man first and an idealist later.
Several problems come to mind from capitalist health care. Drug companies, hospitals, the industry as a whole, makes decisions based on the profits it will provide them, and NOT the health care they will provide patients. If you've got the bucks, step right in for your liver transplant, we'll buy one for you and move you here to the front of the line.
Medicine is much cheaper in countries with socialized health care, that's a fact. Now the question to resolve would be why other people do not deserve for you to contribute towards their care. But I will say one thing, democracy has nothing to do with capitalism. The act of democracy grants each citizen a rightful place in society, yet capitalism obliterates that place after the vote.
A true capitalist would see the benefits of providing health care to those in need, and by doing so, preserve capitalism by not causing the majority vote towards socialism. Vene
Pay for the poor to have health care or they will vote it into law a few years down the line. Your choice now, they're choice later.
Btw, none of this has anything to do with the good and bad or moral and immoral aspects. This has and always will be about money. And for the US government, the preservation of raw capitalism. Taking care of the less fortunate is an investment you cannot afford to miss. Personally, I don't like it either, but I am a business man first and an idealist later.
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One thing I can't understand about the argument against universal health care is the vehemence with which many say that it would be taking away from people who worked hard to give to those who didn't earn it. I would understand if the government was taking cash from some to give cash to others, who could then spend it on whatever they want. But in the case of heath care, the overwhelming majority of the uninsured do work. And by getting health care , they will be in a better position to work more and be more productive. It has nothing to do with "earning" it because many people doing useful jobs in our economy work for companies who simply can't afford to, or refuse to, provide them with health care. To the opponents, no one is trying to change the way you think about the poor or government giving. I don't care if you want to keep clinging to the notion that the world is divided between people who work hard and the lazy who live off everyone else. But in the end, when we do have health care reform, it will improve the moral standing of this country, whether everyone agrees with it or not.
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Forgiveness_Man wrote:
No we can't afford it. The money ain't there. The CONCEPT of having everybody insured seems nice. Guess what, concepts don't take care of people. It just doesn't work. Everybody cannot be equally wealthy. If you try to have universal healthcare, all you will do is make it so MORE people have less access to medical services. The government is incompetent. They've financially ruined everything else they've touched and now we wanna give them control of healthcare? Sorry, I am against it. I'm going to agree with disagree with you.
Do that. Cause you're wrong anyway. I would rip this little tired ass (and completely WRONG) paragraph off yours apart but since you have sense enough to concede defeat, then I'll be easy.
I ain't. I just find it funny how you can't discuss things without lame insults.
Yeah right. WHERE the fuck did I insult you, IF you aren't a sucky ass Republican? LOL!
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I can't think of a single reason why we shouldn't. The US failing to provide health care for each of its citizens to me is like creating a social divide to keep the have-not's in line or to totally eradicate them. The wealthy rich are deserving of health care because of their class, but the lowly poor, maybe this will be another way to eliminate them or at the very least not have to deal with them.
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- Post n°13
Re: Should the U.S. Have Universal Healthcare?
by Forgiveness Man Sun Sep 19, 2010 8:53 am
I don't have to concede defeat. I know I'm right. I don't like harping on things that are already settled, especially when the person I am talking with has resisted every attempt for respectful debate I've made. I don't debate with people with nothing to say. You seem almost sad that I'm done. It's okay NYSyle.Nystyle709 wrote:Cut for space
(Your entire posts are insults directed at me BTW lol)@ those who don't understand why many are so opposed: It is NOT because people don't want everybody to have health insurance. It is because we've seen what happens when government tries to run things and it doesn't work. It's a nice sentiment but the idea that national healthcare can work is just a candyland sentiment. It's impractical in implication. Besides, NOTHING is free. I'd love to be able to get free healthcare for everyone of us. I just realize that politicians can't give it to us, nor is it their job to do that.
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Forgiveness_Man wrote:
I don't have to concede defeat. I know I'm right. I don't like harping on things that are already settled, especially when the person I am talking with has resisted every attempt for respectful debate I've made. I don't debate with people with nothing to say. You seem almost sad that I'm done. It's okay NYSyle.
Hey, whatever you wanna call it. You getting tired of looking stupid don't you? It's okay, I understand. I'm sorry for making you feel like the ineffectual male that you most likely are. I'll leave you alone..............................................................................for now.('
')
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- Post n°15
Re: Should the U.S. Have Universal Healthcare?
by Forgiveness Man Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:28 pm
You'd almost never know.
Anyway, universal healthcare is one of those things that sounds good on paper but in execution, just doesn't work. Kind of like the idea of giving everybody a nice house to live in on the government's dime. Outside of candyland, free stuff just doesn't work.
Anyway, universal healthcare is one of those things that sounds good on paper but in execution, just doesn't work. Kind of like the idea of giving everybody a nice house to live in on the government's dime. Outside of candyland, free stuff just doesn't work.
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Canada has had a universal heath care system for... decades. It was brought in in the 60's by a guy named Tommy Douglas, one of our former premiers, who felt that no one should suffer for a lack of ability to pay. He brought in provincial health care for his province and eventually he, and two other leaders, brought in universal health care.
I can say that without universal health care, my aunt probably would have died several years ago while awaiting a liver transplant. My uncle was an orchardist and they did not have private health care or benefits as he was self employed. Because of universal heath care, my aunt's medical bills were considerably reduced and she did not have to pay for her transplant nor the costs related to it. She only had to pay for her hospital bed, and that was a responsible price - something like $15.00 a night or so. We figure the operation and recovery would have cost between $100 000 and $150 000 - not money my aunt and uncle could afford.
My Dad would also likely be paralysed without universal health care. Two years ago, he noticed a tingling sensation in his arm. He started loosing feeling in that arm. Doctors thought it was just nerve damage - tests didn't reveal anything serious - and would heal in time. Eventually, he began loosing the ability to distinguish hot and cold and the loss of sensation spread to both arms. This was about a year later. He went back to the doctor and was sent to a specialist, who ordered a series of tests. He was told that it was a compressed nerve high in his spinal column. He was scheduled for immediate surgery. Without the surgery, he was told it would spread and eventually he would have been paralysed. My parents are retired with decent health care but no where near enough to cover the costs of the operation in time to stop the paralysis. Just over a year later, it's almost like nothing has happened. He's almost completely regained use of his arms and there is almost no tingling and he can feel hot and cold again. Without universal health care, my parents would have been put so far in debt that my brother and I would have been paying it off for years to come.
The Canadian system isn't perfect and there are still flaws, but there are many other people in my life who would not be here today, or would be here in a severely diminished capacity, if not for universal health care.
Several years ago, there was a nation wide contest to determine "The Greatest Canadian". The top 50 Canadians were tallied and voters voted by phone, online, through e-mail, and by mailing in. From those 50, the top 10 were chosen. Voting went on for several months and the top 10 were given ... I think it was a one hour TV special, featuring them and their contribution to Canada. People from all walks of life were nominated - Canada's greatest heroes and contributors to our country - people like Wayne Gretzky, Alexander Graham Bell, Fredrick Banting, politicians who defined Canada. In the end, it came down to two people - Terry Fox and Tommy Douglas. The TV station running the contest noticed an interesting trend. Those who were 40 and under or so voted overwhelmingly in favour of Terry Fox. Those who were older than 40, who could remember Tommy Douglas, voted overwhelmingly in favour of him. He went on to win the contest and was declared "The Greatest Canadian" due to his contribution to Canada's medicare system.
Sorry for rambling. I guess I got a bit passionate. I do know that when there was talk of Canada bringing in universal health care, there were a lot of concerns but today it's one of the best features of Canada.
I can say that without universal health care, my aunt probably would have died several years ago while awaiting a liver transplant. My uncle was an orchardist and they did not have private health care or benefits as he was self employed. Because of universal heath care, my aunt's medical bills were considerably reduced and she did not have to pay for her transplant nor the costs related to it. She only had to pay for her hospital bed, and that was a responsible price - something like $15.00 a night or so. We figure the operation and recovery would have cost between $100 000 and $150 000 - not money my aunt and uncle could afford.
My Dad would also likely be paralysed without universal health care. Two years ago, he noticed a tingling sensation in his arm. He started loosing feeling in that arm. Doctors thought it was just nerve damage - tests didn't reveal anything serious - and would heal in time. Eventually, he began loosing the ability to distinguish hot and cold and the loss of sensation spread to both arms. This was about a year later. He went back to the doctor and was sent to a specialist, who ordered a series of tests. He was told that it was a compressed nerve high in his spinal column. He was scheduled for immediate surgery. Without the surgery, he was told it would spread and eventually he would have been paralysed. My parents are retired with decent health care but no where near enough to cover the costs of the operation in time to stop the paralysis. Just over a year later, it's almost like nothing has happened. He's almost completely regained use of his arms and there is almost no tingling and he can feel hot and cold again. Without universal health care, my parents would have been put so far in debt that my brother and I would have been paying it off for years to come.
The Canadian system isn't perfect and there are still flaws, but there are many other people in my life who would not be here today, or would be here in a severely diminished capacity, if not for universal health care.
Several years ago, there was a nation wide contest to determine "The Greatest Canadian". The top 50 Canadians were tallied and voters voted by phone, online, through e-mail, and by mailing in. From those 50, the top 10 were chosen. Voting went on for several months and the top 10 were given ... I think it was a one hour TV special, featuring them and their contribution to Canada. People from all walks of life were nominated - Canada's greatest heroes and contributors to our country - people like Wayne Gretzky, Alexander Graham Bell, Fredrick Banting, politicians who defined Canada. In the end, it came down to two people - Terry Fox and Tommy Douglas. The TV station running the contest noticed an interesting trend. Those who were 40 and under or so voted overwhelmingly in favour of Terry Fox. Those who were older than 40, who could remember Tommy Douglas, voted overwhelmingly in favour of him. He went on to win the contest and was declared "The Greatest Canadian" due to his contribution to Canada's medicare system.
Sorry for rambling. I guess I got a bit passionate. I do know that when there was talk of Canada bringing in universal health care, there were a lot of concerns but today it's one of the best features of Canada.
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^^^^ That's quite compelling to hear. Thanks for sharing. The opponents of universal health care already look at it in a negative light. So they'll find every excuse in the book not to do it. They talk about the cost. Which would be much less than what they rather blow money on, but that's another issue. They should look at it like a bill. Something that you HAVE to pay. But no, taking care of your constituents is too much of a cost burden for them. They complain about the 'government' running healthcare, but these huge corporations that you fucking support.....who do they look to bail them out when they get into trouble? They've already run private healthcare into the ground. This isn't a class issue or a wealth issue. To declare that people with money and people without money shouldn't have the same health coverage is complete bullshit. EVERYONE should have the same health insurance because we are ALL human beings who can get sick. Who are you to put a price on someone else's life or their health? No one has the right to declare if one person's life is more important than someone else's because they may or may not have more money.
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- Post n°18
Re: Should the U.S. Have Universal Healthcare?
by Forgiveness Man Mon Sep 20, 2010 4:23 pm
And it doesn't work that well. America has it much better than Canada. Universal healthcare would ruin that. You can't give everybody equally good healthcare, only equally bad healthcare, and making healthcare universal will do just that, give us all crappy healthcare.TSJFan4Ever wrote:Canada has had a universal heath care system for... decades.
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Nystyle709 - lately there has been talk about privatizing some areas of the Canadian health care system. Polls were conducting and something like 80$ of Canadians felt it was a bad idea, that what we have is preferable and much safer for people, as everyone is equal. care is determined based on your need, not your ability to pay.
I just heard a heartbreaking story today from someone who is pregnant but experiencing complications. She needs to have testing done, as there is concern over a possible heart condition. She said that her insurance will only cover a certain amount, so this will mean no doctor's visits for most of the pregnancy and almost no prenatal care, if they proceed with the testing for the heart condition. There won't be any ultrasounds or anything like that, because there won't be enough money. That's something that would never happen with a socialist system. If you need care, you won't be denied it for something as stupid as a lack of money. Even immigrants and refugees wouldn't be denied care. It's something that the majority of Canadians believe really strongly in. Quality of care shouldn't be based on your ability to pay, but on your need.
I just heard a heartbreaking story today from someone who is pregnant but experiencing complications. She needs to have testing done, as there is concern over a possible heart condition. She said that her insurance will only cover a certain amount, so this will mean no doctor's visits for most of the pregnancy and almost no prenatal care, if they proceed with the testing for the heart condition. There won't be any ultrasounds or anything like that, because there won't be enough money. That's something that would never happen with a socialist system. If you need care, you won't be denied it for something as stupid as a lack of money. Even immigrants and refugees wouldn't be denied care. It's something that the majority of Canadians believe really strongly in. Quality of care shouldn't be based on your ability to pay, but on your need.
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TSJFan4Ever wrote:Nystyle709 - lately there has been talk about privatizing some areas of the Canadian health care system. Polls were conducting and something like 80$ of Canadians felt it was a bad idea, that what we have is preferable and much safer for people, as everyone is equal. care is determined based on your need, not your ability to pay.
I just heard a heartbreaking story today from someone who is pregnant but experiencing complications. She needs to have testing done, as there is concern over a possible heart condition. She said that her insurance will only cover a certain amount, so this will mean no doctor's visits for most of the pregnancy and almost no prenatal care, if they proceed with the testing for the heart condition. There won't be any ultrasounds or anything like that, because there won't be enough money. That's something that would never happen with a socialist system. If you need care, you won't be denied it for something as stupid as a lack of money. Even immigrants and refugees wouldn't be denied care. It's something that the majority of Canadians believe really strongly in. Quality of care shouldn't be based on your ability to pay, but on your need.
As it should be be.
. And I don't see Canada on the list of underdeveloped or third world countries due to preventable diseases or anything like that, so I don't see how someone can say that Canada's system doesn't 'work that well'. The citizens there are prob. healthier in general than we are. Basically, there is no reason NOT to do it.
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- Post n°21
Re: Should the U.S. Have Universal Healthcare?
by Forgiveness Man Wed Sep 22, 2010 8:37 pm
That's a fairly idealistic approach. It is especially one that wouldn't be solved by universal healthcare.TSJFan4Ever wrote:Quality of care shouldn't be based on your ability to pay, but on your need.
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Yup! I'm glad Canada has the system it does. Thankfully, I've never needed to use it, other than the basic check-ups and that kind of thing, but I know that it's there if I need it. Time and again, surveys have shown that our health care system is something that most people really value and would not change.
Having a socialist health care system certainly hasn't forced our country into debt, so if someone is saying that our health care system doesn't work, I have no idea where they got their info from - cereal boxes? the tabloids? There's a reason more and more Americans are coming across the border to seek health care here.
Having a socialist health care system certainly hasn't forced our country into debt, so if someone is saying that our health care system doesn't work, I have no idea where they got their info from - cereal boxes? the tabloids? There's a reason more and more Americans are coming across the border to seek health care here.
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^^^^^ Healthcare in the U.S. is a broken system. And they won't even try to fix it. That's the part that annoys me. No no no. That's all you hear. Give you a bunch of reasons but no solutions. How are you sure universal healthcare won't work here if you've never even tried it in the first damn place? Or any system extending quality healthcare to more citizens. It's disgraceful.
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Absolutely. The US should make strides to take care of all of its citizens, rather than treating a faction of them who can't afford it as unworthy or unnecessary, which is basically the message being sent out. I have a cousin who hasn't been to the doctor (or had a checkup) in ten years, not since he aged out of being covered on his parents health insurance. So every time he gets a cold, or a flu, he tries his damnedest to lay low so that it doesn't escalate into anything more serious.
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