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Are Confederate Flags racist, IYO?
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JM130ELM
captainbryce
RobbieFTW
Alan Smithee
Chris
Nystyle709
Supernova
RiteDiva
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Confederate Flags, racist?
RiteDiva- …is an Up 'N Comer.
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Are Confederate Flags racist, IYO?
Supernova- The Book Chamber
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No.
Nystyle709- ...is a 20G Chamber DIETY.
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Racists use them. They don't need to be flying atop any state or government building. So other than that, I don't give a shit. I remember when I was living in SC.....you wouldn't even recognize the actual American flag if you saw it again after living there.
Chris- Chamber Admin.
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Looking at the big picture, there is more to the flag than its history of racism (although it's a significantpart of it.) Since it represents a part of America and the whole of its history -- just for historic reference -- I can somewhat forgive the flag being displayed on larger monuments. However, if I saw someone with a confederate flag on their property, I would assume they were a bigot. It has too much notorious negative connotation for any enlightened person to feel comfortable personally sporting, even if they're from the South and are proud.
Supernova- The Book Chamber
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What about the General Lee race car? Or how about those license plate things with the rebel flag and 'Get R Done' on it?
Nystyle709- ...is a 20G Chamber DIETY.
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What about it? I wouldn't compare the Confederate flag to a flag with a catchphrase on it.
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Chris wrote:Looking at the big picture, there is more to the flag than its history of racism (although it's a significant part of it.) Since it represents a part of America and the whole of its history -- just for historic reference -- I can somewhat forgive the flag being displayed on larger monuments. However, if I saw someone with a confederate flag on their property, I would assume they were a bigot. It has too much notorious negative connotation for any enlightened person to feel comfortable personally sporting, even if they're from the South and are proud.
Supernova- The Book Chamber
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Nystyle709 wrote:What about it? I wouldn't compare the Confederate flag to a flag with a catchphrase on it.
It's the same flag being used in both cases.
RobbieFTW- …is Being Fitted For a Crown.
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If you consider their WHOLE history then you can't ignore the racist element, but I'm not sure if the flag shouldn't be celebrated for it's WHOLE symbolism that goes beyond just racism.
captainbryce- …is a Power Member.
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To me, that's like asking whether or not a swastika is anti-semetic. There is only one obvious answer to that, and if someone is asking the question in the first place, then they already know what the answer is!
JM130ELM- …is Necessary.
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I have yet to see anyone display this flag who wasn't a racist. Ok, sure, maybe there's more to its cumulative history than race and racism...but segregation and racism represents such a large, palatable chunk of its past that it is a defining metaphor for: racism.
There's a reason why Klan members are so enthralled with this flag.
There's a reason why Klan members are so enthralled with this flag.
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With all due respect, I've never understood the argument over the confederate flag's "history" as being significant to justify it as a public national symbol. I honestly feel that the confederate flag is about as "anti American" as you can get! The confederacy LOST the war and they in fact stood AGAINST the Union. The confederacy was against freedom and democrasy, against equal rights and supported slavery! That is the antithesis of what it means to be an "American" (one nation under God, with liberty and justice for all). The confederate flag is a disgrace to the American Flag and everything it stands for and anyone who flies it (beyond being ignorant of what it actually stood for) values what that flag represented! At best, the confederate flag should be preserved as a historical relic, but never displayed or flown on any public building.Chris wrote:Looking at the big picture, there is more to the flag than its history of racism (although it's a significantpart of it.) Since it represents a part of America and the whole of itshistory -- just for historic reference -- I can somewhat forgive theflag being displayed on larger monuments. However, if I saw someonewith a confederate flag on their property, I would assume they were abigot. It has too much notorious negative connotation for anyenlightened person to feel comfortable personally sporting, even ifthey're from the South and are proud.
Individuals who fly the confederate flag on their own property or drive around with one on their car shouldn't be surprised when people think they are racist because that's the image that they put out there for everyone to see. Find me a black man (from the north or south) who flies the confederate flag and everyone of you will think that such an individual is certifiably insane!
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captainbryce wrote:With all due respect, I've never understood the argument over the confederate flag's "history" as being significant to justify it as a public national symbol. I honestly feel that the confederate flag is about as "anti American" as you can get! The confederacy LOST the war and they in fact stood AGAINST the Union. The confederacy was against freedom and democrasy, against equal rights and supported slavery! That is the antithesis of what it means to be an "American" (one nation under God, with liberty and justice for all). The confederate flag is a disgrace to the American Flag and everything it stands for and anyone who flies it (beyond being ignorant of what it actually stood for) values what that flag represented! At best, the confederate flag should be preserved as a historical relic, but never displayed or flown on any public building.Chris wrote:Looking at the big picture, there is more to the flag than its history of racism (although it's a significantpart of it.) Since it represents a part of America and the whole of itshistory -- just for historic reference -- I can somewhat forgive theflag being displayed on larger monuments. However, if I saw someonewith a confederate flag on their property, I would assume they were abigot. It has too much notorious negative connotation for anyenlightened person to feel comfortable personally sporting, even ifthey're from the South and are proud.
Individuals who fly the confederate flag on their own property or drive around with one on their car shouldn't be surprised when people think they are racist because that's the image that they put out there for everyone to see. Find me a black man (from the north or south) who flies the confederate flag and everyone of you will think that such an individual is certifiably insane!
I can't even argue with you; you're right.
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Nhaiyel- …is a Power Member.
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There are several views on this. A flag cannot be inherently anything. It doesn't hold views. However, it is a symbol of many things/ideas. The Confederate Flag represents many things, but they are embodied in that which was the Confederacy.
The South (later Confederacy) was an agrarian economy based upon slave (free) labor. This came into a conflict of interest with the industrial North. They argued a lot over taxes, trade, and tariffs. The slave labor was all non-white, and a belief in white superiority was all but universal. However, the same can be said of the North. Most abolitionists didn't believe in full equality of all races.
I believe it has its place in history, and a place among the fallen Confederate soldiers; however, in general it is associated with racism (if not inherently racist) and should not be associated with the present. To display it in such a way is inherently disrespectful and callous towards the suffering imposed upon the slaves.
The South (later Confederacy) was an agrarian economy based upon slave (free) labor. This came into a conflict of interest with the industrial North. They argued a lot over taxes, trade, and tariffs. The slave labor was all non-white, and a belief in white superiority was all but universal. However, the same can be said of the North. Most abolitionists didn't believe in full equality of all races.
I believe it has its place in history, and a place among the fallen Confederate soldiers; however, in general it is associated with racism (if not inherently racist) and should not be associated with the present. To display it in such a way is inherently disrespectful and callous towards the suffering imposed upon the slaves.
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captainbryce wrote:To me, that's like asking whether or not a swastika is anti-semetic.
Except that the swastika was not originally a Nazi symbol, originally it was a peace sign.
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True, but how many people living today would associate that symbol with PEACE? Saying that a symbol "originally" stood for something else has very little intrinsic value because its the perception of what such a symbol is generally associated with TODAY, that actually matters. The fact that Adolph Hitler used that symbol to polarize an entire nation dedicated to exterminating Jews and taking over Europe and neo-nazi skinheads wear tattoos of the swastika today as a proud symbol of anti Jewish and anti black hatred, the fact that it originally stood for peace seems rather insignificant! And I can basically make the same argument for the confederate flag as well. The confederate flag may not have been intended to be (or originally flow as) a symbol of racism, but that's what it stands for today in the minds of most African Americans and good number of non-blacks as well. In fact, I would even say that the majority of Americans can at least see the racial connotations that flag has, and by that argument alone it shouldn't be flown on any government buildings.Supernova wrote:
Except that the swastika was not originally a Nazi symbol, originally it was a peace sign.
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Supernova wrote:
It's the same flag being used in both cases.
It is? Well, "Get R Done" does appeal to the rednecks, so I guess that catchphrase wouldn't be offensive on such a flag. Doesn't take away from the fact that the flag itself is racist.
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It reflects a time in history that was rooted in racism. There is nothing wrong with taking pride in your roots, but I personally wouldn't feel pride in knowing that my ancestors supported slavery, the holocaust, or any of that. I don't like seeing the confederate flag, and I assume the person who flies it is racist or ignorant.
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So which was the Dukes of Hazzard since they had it on top of their car?
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I don't respect the flag, and if I see someone with one, I immediately know that the person is not enlightened at all, and should be quarantined or at least avoided. But I don't believe in burying everything that is ugly or offensive either. Love it or hate it, it is undeniably a part of US history for sure. It has historical value, so for THAT people should have a certain amount of exposure to/knowledge of it.
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JB wrote:I don't respect the flag, and if I see someone with one, I immediately know that the person is not enlightened at all, and should be quarantined or at least avoided. But I don't believe in burying everything that is ugly or offensive either. Love it or hate it, it is undeniably a part of US history for sure. It has historical value, so for THAT people should have a certain amount of exposure to/knowledge of it.
Yup, and lets start with the real Flag of the Confederate States of America.
The problem with this original flag used from 1861-63 is the confusion on the battlefield, which was often smoke filled. So they changed it to the more familiar Confederate Battle Flag from 1863 onward.
But I'd like to address some of the other comments here, because it personally involves where I've been.
CatEyes10736 wrote:It reflects a time in history that was rooted in racism. There is nothing wrong with taking pride in your roots, but I personally wouldn't feel pride in knowing that my ancestors supported slavery, the holocaust, or any of that. I don't like seeing the confederate flag, and I assume the person who flies it is racist or ignorant.
JM130ELM wrote:I have yet to see anyone display this flag who wasn't a racist. Ok, sure, maybe there's more to its cumulative history than race and racism...but segregation and racism represents such a large, palatable chunk of its past that it is a defining metaphor for: racism.....
Chris wrote:... However, if I saw someone with a confederate flag on their property, I would assume they were a bigot. It has too much notorious negative connotation for any enlightened person to feel comfortable personally sporting, even if they're from the South and are proud.
Well, my dad's side of the family is from Mississippi and I spent lots of summers there in the heart of the confederacy, back in the actual segregation days in the South. I never adopted that belief of racism and as a teen actually rebelled against it, but still my family history was Southern white. I actually had a great-great grandfather who was in the Civil War on the Confederate side.
So, as a young man I picked up a Confederate stars and bars in New Orleans and hung it on the wall of my apartment, right over the bed. The opposite wall about 9 feet wide by 14 feet tall was completely covered with Playboy centerfolds - just to give you an idea of the decor of a 20-something guy in 1968.
So, I was not a racist but I had the flag prominently displayed on my wall. It is a dynamic color combination, very striking and besides the racism and slavery it represented, it actually was the banner that white men fought and died under. It is history.
But, I never thot of that, just looked neat. Now one of my few close friends at this time was Charles Toussaint a black co-worker. I invited him over to my house and he was shocked at my flag on the wall. He only said it surprised him that I would have it. Gave it some thot and the flag became history again. Charles seemed to understand that it was just decoration - we still hung out and I ate at his table with his family and kids.
But, yeah anyone who flies the thing now is either a Southern redneck good-ol boy or otherwise unenlightened young person but not necessarily a racist.
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