Shale wrote:

2xy wrote:

... Another thought on the term "African American": My friend's boyfriend is mildly offended when people call him AA, because he's not American. He's from France, and is here for college. He's black, thankyouverymuch.

This is a problem, using an identifier for ppl that is diff than their self-identity. Right now where I work we have a young woman of Haitian heritage who was born in the US. Our case manager didn't know how to identify her. She is not African-Haitian or Haitian Amnerican, but here we differentiate blacks by nationality. I said just go with black American.

I don't like the term African-American because most black ppl from Detroit, Chicago and NY would not last any longer than whites if dropped in the bush of Africa. In other words, yes that is the origin of their particular race, just as mine is from Europe but no one tries to tag me Euro-American (except me).

So, I would be white-American as opposed to black-American. However, there are Caucasians from India who are darker than most blacks, yet they could be called white. (Ironically, a blond-haired, blue-eyed immigrant from South Africa got all sorts of grief when he CORRECTLY claimed to be "African-American.")

Oh and not to bust anyone's racial identity bubble, but the Prez is not black - he is mixed race - as much white as he is black. And yet everyone claims he is the first black president.

2xy - are you a waitress or a server?

alan smithee wrote:

2xy - are you a waitress or a server?

Server. That has little to do with political correctness, though. Nobody refers to a female pilot as a pilotess. It's simply unnecessary.

Anyway, the company I work for refers to us as servers and that's the term we use at work. When I get a job in my field of study, I'm hoping that nobody will refer to me as an ultrasound technologistess.

However, I don't correct guests when they refer to me as their waitress. I figure they're just old-fashioned or silly people.

Way to go Shale! 2K!!

2xy wrote:

alan smithee wrote:

2xy - are you a waitress or a server?

Server. That has little to do with political correctness, though. Nobody refers to a female pilot as a pilotess. It's simply unnecessary.

Anyway, the company I work for refers to us as servers and that's the term we use at work. When I get a job in my field of study, I'm hoping that nobody will refer to me as an ultrasound technologistess.

However, I don't correct guests when they refer to me as their waitress. I figure they're just old-fashioned or silly people.

Sorry, but PC has a great deal to do with it. Amelia Earhart might not have been called a pilotess. She was known as an aviatrix. Charles Lindbergh was an aviator. PC is what changed that.

alan smithee wrote:

Sorry, but PC has a great deal to do with it. Amelia Earhart might not have been called a pilotess. She was known as an aviatrix. Charles Lindbergh was an aviator. PC is what changed that.

::shrug:: Maybe so. What I meant was that my own reference to myself as a server has little to do with being PC. It's really just simpler to call everyone who serves a "server" than to break them up by gender....because really, why does it matter what gender your server is?

I wish I could say I understood Shale's remark, but I don't get it.

2xy wrote:

alan smithee wrote:

Sorry, but PC has a great deal to do with it. Amelia Earhart might not have been called a pilotess. She was known as an aviatrix. Charles Lindbergh was an aviator. PC is what changed that.

::shrug:: Maybe so. What I meant was that my own reference to myself as a server has little to do with being PC. It's really just simpler to call everyone who serves a "server" than to break them up by gender....because really, why does it matter what gender your server is?

I wish I could say I understood Shale's remark, but I don't get it.

I think he was being coy about your "old fashioned" remark, speaking as if he arrived via horse and buggy. I could be wrong.

2xy wrote:

... It's really just simpler to call everyone who serves a "server" than to break them up by gender....because really, why does it matter what gender your server is?

I wish I could say I understood Shale's remark, but I don't get it.

Language often languishes behind the paradigm shifts of culture.

There used to be no servers in most restaurants, just waitresses. It was a job dominated by women. Just as there used to not be flight attendants, just stewardesses. It too was a job dominated by women.

All the PC wording had to accommodate the inclusion of men or women into jobs once exclusive to one or the other.

When I was a kid there were mailmen, now we have letter carriers because they ain't all men any more. All this in my lifetime, which means after WWII when women invaded the workforce in great numbers. Before that women mainly worked as nurses, waitresses and secretaries. Oh, and hookers.

My ref to "girl" was because old ppl often call adult men or women, boy or girl. Militant feminists get their panties in a knot over that, without considering the source, that it is a term of endearment from someone who may have a son or daughter in their 40s - and anything younger than that is perceived as a boy or girl.

^^See - horse and buggy

Shale wrote:

There used to be no servers in most restaurants, just waitresses. It was a job dominated by women.

Yes and no. High-end restaurants have pretty much always been dominated by men, from the kitchen down to the waitstaff. Waitresses worked in family restaurants and truck-stops. That's a class thing more than a gender thing. If you dined where there was a waiter, you were likely spending more money, and therefore it was important to note that the person serving you was a man and not a woman....especially when telling your friends about your dining experience.

Shale wrote:

My ref to "girl" was because old ppl often call adult men or women, boy or girl.

Not so much in New England, which is probably why it went over my head. That's more of a Southern thang.

RobbieFTW wrote:

What's your take on political correctness? Ok I can admit that it can get a little too silly and uptight sometimes, but I am ALWAYS suspicious of people who are so quick to complain about PC and try to go out of their way to ANTI-Politically Correct. Like their opinions & speech is really being hindered by it.

Politically Correctness is a concept that definetely has its place and was brought on by necessity. If everyone (or at least the majority) had a basic sense of common respect for other people combined with a certain level of general education, then there would never have been any need for PC to exist at all. Unfortunately the general ignorance of man, not to mention the inconsiderate attitude of the "many" has created the necessity for PC. And also unfortunately, PC has been bastardized into an overused, over emphesized, ridiculed and complained about tool of both the politically sensitive and the aggressively opinionated alike. That in mind, when PC is used in a "common sense" way, there is nothing wrong with it. When people use it for fear of saying something that might be perceived the wrong way, it is often an indication of their own ignorance and they are more likely to annoy others with their incessant use of useless PC terms and phrases. On the other side are the people who routinely complain day in and day out about the use of PC to further political agendas. And I tend to agree with the folks who consider these habitual "complainers" as folks who are most likely irritated by the fact that they cannot be free to use intentionally offensive terminolory or terms that further their own negative views and sterotypes of other people.

My take on terms:

1. Christmas: people need to call things what they are. If you are going to throw a party on Christmas Eve or Christmas day and there happens to be a Christmas tree there with presents underneath and gift-giving, then it's a fucking Christmas party! Calling it a Holiday party is useless because it doesn't specify the purpose of what you are doing. Now, if your throwing an office party with a clear mix of ethnicities and religions and it has a mix of various traditional/religious symbols and customs, or no religious specific things at all then you can call it a "Holiday party". But in my experience, Holiday parties are usually Christmas parties.

2. African American: Hopefully this term will eventually DIE, but it looks like it's more likely to die a slow and painful death than a quick and easy one. There are still people who use it (although I hear it among white people and very rarely ever hear any black person refer to themselves as this). If you were born/raised in Africa and immigrated to the US, then you are "African American" regardless of what race you are. If you are "black" and live in the US, you are NOT African America! But some people still don't like the term black because it has negative connotations. It's too bad we can't reclaim the term "colored" (which most people today see as archaic and offensive). I honestly think that colored sounds more attractive than black despite the "black is beautiful" movement. When I think "colored", I think rainbows, flowes and works of art. When I think "black" I think of darkness, night, shadows, and death. But hey, who the hell am I to complain!

*speaking of ethnicity, for some reason it seems like "Jew" and "Oriental" only became offensive within the last half of my lifetime. Go figure!

3. Stewardess: This term is archaich and sexist. Not to mention the fact that they hardly do much "serving" anymore. Since there are male flight attendents (that nobody refers to as a steward), nobody should be saying stewardess anymore. Just my opinion!

4. Like George Carlin said: Midgets and dwarves are fucking midgets and dwarves. They are not "little people". CHILDREN are little people! Fat people are not "overweight" or "heavy"! An overloaded aircraft is overweight and trucks are heavy. Obese people are fucking FAT! And mentally retarded people are not "mentally challenged". A writer who has writers block and a doctor trying to find the cure for cancer are both mentally challenged! People with an extremely low IQ are retarded!

5. Queer used to be an offensive term while nowadays, homosexuals have reclaimed it as something to celebrate. "Gay" on the other had started off as a fairly benign term and homophobes are not turning into a dengrating insult by calling everythign they don't like or agree with GAY! Once again, the actions of the ignorant/intolorant necessitate the need for political correctness.

Sorry captainbryce, but post #38 and post #39 sound like they were written by two people with opposite views on the subject.

alan smithee wrote:

Sorry captainbryce, but post #38 and post #39 sound like they were written by two people with opposite views on the subject.

How so? I said that political correctness has its place and I highlighted specific instances when it did (and explained why). I also pointed out that it was inappropriately used in many cases, and then gave my views on which "politically correct" terms were useless on the basis of them being incorrect. What's the problem?

Because on the one hand you call out the "complainers"

Quote :

And I tend to agree with the folks who consider these habitual "complainers" as folks who are most likely irritated by the fact that they cannot be free to use intentionally offensive terminolory or terms that further their own negative views and sterotypes of other people.

and on the other you seem to complain.

Quote :

Midgets and dwarves are fucking midgets and dwarves. Obese people are fucking FAT!

Who gets to decide what is offensive terminology?

alan smithee wrote:

Because on the one hand you call out the "complainers"

Quote :

And I tend to agree with the folks who consider these habitual "complainers" as folks who are most likely irritated by the fact that they cannot be free to use intentionally offensive terminolory or terms that further their own negative views and sterotypes of other people.

and on the other you seem to complain.

Quote :

Midgets and dwarves are fucking midgets and dwarves. Obese people are fucking FAT!

That's not a complaint. That's a quote from George Carlin. One that I happen to agree with. Calling midgets "little people" and fat people "heavy" is misleading, nondescript and is only ever done to prevent people's feelings from getting hurt.

alan smithee wrote:

Who gets to decide what is offensive terminology?

Each individual. So if a midget demands that I call him a "little person" then from then on out I will call HIM/HER a little person. But in general, I will still refer to them as midgets because I don't see how that's any MORE offensive than "little person".

captainbryce wrote:

alan smithee wrote:

Because on the one hand you call out the "complainers"


and on the other you seem to complain.

That's not a complaint. That's a quote from George Carlin. One that I happen to agree with. Calling midgets "little people" and fat people "heavy" is misleading, nondescript and is only ever done to prevent people's feelings from getting hurt.

alan smithee wrote:

Who gets to decide what is offensive terminology?

Each individual. So if a midget demands that I call him a "little person" then from then on out I will call HIM/HER a little person. But in general, I will still refer to them as midgets because I don't see how that's any MORE offensive than "little person".

cap, this isn't the first time we haven't seen eye to eye and it might not be the last so I'm just going to say we're going to have to agree to disagree again. For all I know, we may even be saying the same thing but I honestly can't tell.