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MandyPerfumeGirl
CeCe
Forgiveness Man
Chris
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Should businesses have the right to ask a nursing mother to leave?
Chris- Chamber Admin.
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We discussed mothers nursing, and whether or not they should choose to, in another thread? Do you think that business (privately owned establishments) should be able to ask a nursing mother to stop, or leave? Legally they can't, but what's your take?
Forgiveness Man- …is a Chamber Royal.
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I guess if her nursing is becoming an impediment to their business, then yes they should be able to. If she is managing to make it so it has no effect on the business' performance, they have no causation. But if it's causing problems, they have a right to do something about it.
CeCe- …is a Chamber DEITY.
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Forgiveness_Man wrote:I guess if her nursing is becoming an impediment to their business, then yes they should be able to. If she is managing to make it so it has no effect on the business' performance, they have no causation. But if it's causing problems, they have a right to do something about it.
MandyPerfumeGirl- …is a Power Member.
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Chris wrote:We discussed mothers nursing, and whether or not they should choose to, in another thread? Do you think that business (privately owned establishments) should be able to ask a nursing mother to stop, or leave? Legally they can't, but what's your take?
Definitely not! Mothers should be able to feed their babies wherever they happen to be, and if the other people don't like it, tough.
RedBedroom- …is a Chamber DEITY.
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I think that women should be required to cover up. I don't think it is right to feed at breast in front of everybody.
Shale- ...is a Chamber Royal.
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MandyPerfumeGirl wrote:Chris wrote:...Do you think that business (privately owned establishments) should be able to ask a nursing mother to stop, or leave? Legally they can't, but what's your take?
Definitely not! Mothers should be able to feed their babies wherever they happen to be, and if the other people don't like it, tough.
Altho we have a law in Florida protecting nursing mothers, it is still a bad reflection on our body negative culture that we need such a law protecting a natural occurance of our species for millions of years.
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RedBedroom wrote:I think that women should be required to cover up. I don't think it is right to feed at breast in front of everybody.
I agree with Red. It should be required that nursing mothers cover themselves when feeding the babies in public, but beyond that no public establishment has a legal or moral right to demand that a mother not feed her child that way that she chooses to.
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RedBedroom wrote:I think that women should be required to cover up. I don't think it is right to feed at breast in front of everybody.
CatEyes10736 wrote: I agree with Red. It should be required that nursing mothers cover themselves when feeding the babies in public, ...
There are many ppl for cultural reasons think the same way.
But why do you think this way? Is there something nasty about a female breast that warrants it not being seen in public. I go shirtless all the time in public here. Why are my hairy breasts OK to be seen in public and not some woman nursing a baby?
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Shale, for me it is as simple as the fact that I tend to be prudish, and since it is not common, I am not a fan of exceptions to the rule. Personally, I do not want to be dining out and have my son, when he was younger, subject to watch a baby latch on. Once the baby is at breast, so be it, but I just don't think it is what I am comfortable with. Plus, I don't know why any woman would want strangers in a public establishment to see her nipple as her baby attempts latching on.
I have issue with a lady taking out her breast at a place, say Chuck e Cheese, to nurse, uncovered. That is too public.
I have had women come here and have nursed in front of my son, but they did wait for him to be out of the room for the latching on.
I don't think that the way your attitude toward nudity compared to mine is a bad thing...it is just the way I am and the way you are. I think that the general consensus of America falls somewhere between the prude and the free spirit. I just happen to feel that it is in everyone's best interest for a woman to cover up.
I have issue with a lady taking out her breast at a place, say Chuck e Cheese, to nurse, uncovered. That is too public.
I have had women come here and have nursed in front of my son, but they did wait for him to be out of the room for the latching on.
I don't think that the way your attitude toward nudity compared to mine is a bad thing...it is just the way I am and the way you are. I think that the general consensus of America falls somewhere between the prude and the free spirit. I just happen to feel that it is in everyone's best interest for a woman to cover up.
TPP- …is a Power Member.
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I'm probably super biased on this one, but I say no. Breastfeeding benefits society as a whole, is protected by law, and shows no more than a person wearing a bikini or even a low cut tank top...Even if you don't cover. I've nursed all five of my kids where ever and when ever and I've never used a cover, other than my shirt and my baby. The reason for that is that they would all scream if I covered them and that drew more attention. Plus, nothing says "I'm breastfeeding" more obviously than a lady with a blanket over her shoulder.
To be honest, if a business asked me to leave, I would leave, and then I'd be all over FB and every parenting website that I know talking about it! Whatever impediment to their business that was caused (and how exactly would a person feeding a baby impede business??) by nursing would be minimal compared to the backlash...
To be honest, if a business asked me to leave, I would leave, and then I'd be all over FB and every parenting website that I know talking about it! Whatever impediment to their business that was caused (and how exactly would a person feeding a baby impede business??) by nursing would be minimal compared to the backlash...
Forgiveness Man- …is a Chamber Royal.
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If the woman is really blatant about where she nurses the baby, it could affect business. Right or wrong, people can be uncomfortable with it.
Besides, I think businesses have the right to make policies about what they will or will not tolerate in their establishments. This holds true even if you don't like their policies.
Besides, I think businesses have the right to make policies about what they will or will not tolerate in their establishments. This holds true even if you don't like their policies.
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Forgiveness_Man wrote:If the woman is really blatant about where she nurses the baby, it could affect business. Right or wrong, people can be uncomfortable with it.
Besides, I think businesses have the right to make policies about what they will or will not tolerate in their establishments. This holds true even if you don't like their policies.
And people have a right to protest! I've been to "nurse in's" before and I believe that the negative attention brought to a business from their less than tolerant policies is more harmful than the business they would lose from a few close minded customers who were offended by a nursing woman just being at an establishment.
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People have a right to protest yes, but what exactly are they protesting? A business making it's own rules? Often times, protesters can hurt their own cause along with the business'.thepossiblepolice wrote:And people have a right to protest! I've been to "nurse in's" before and I believe that the negative attention brought to a business from their less than tolerant policies is more harmful than the business they would lose from a few close minded customers who were offended by a nursing woman just being at an establishment.
And I hardly think standards are less than tolerant at all.
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Forgiveness_Man wrote:People have a right to protest yes, but what exactly are they protesting? A business making it's own rules? Often times, protesters can hurt their own cause along with the business'.thepossiblepolice wrote:And people have a right to protest! I've been to "nurse in's" before and I believe that the negative attention brought to a business from their less than tolerant policies is more harmful than the business they would lose from a few close minded customers who were offended by a nursing woman just being at an establishment.
And I hardly think standards are less than tolerant at all.
Discrimination against nursing mothers. If a person can be there feeding a baby a bottle, they should be allowed to be there breastfeeding. Businesses can also say they don't want Christians in their place, black people in their place, gay people in their place, Jewish people in their place...And people who are offended by that have a right to protest that kind of discrimination.
Not sure what you mean by the standards comment.
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thepossiblepolice wrote:Discrimination against nursing mothers. If a person can be there feeding a baby a bottle, they should be allowed to be there breastfeeding. Businesses can also say they don't want Christians in their place, black people in their place, gay people in their place, Jewish people in their place...And people who are offended by that have a right to protest that kind of discrimination.
Not sure what you mean by the standards comment.
There is, however, a time and a place to nurse. Behavior is not the same as race or religion. You can easily breastfeed elsewhere. Businesses have the right to establish dress codes and enforce certain behavior restrictions. It's not discrimination. Protesting is always an option, but it's not always the most mature of options either.
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Forgiveness_Man wrote:thepossiblepolice wrote:Discrimination against nursing mothers. If a person can be there feeding a baby a bottle, they should be allowed to be there breastfeeding. Businesses can also say they don't want Christians in their place, black people in their place, gay people in their place, Jewish people in their place...And people who are offended by that have a right to protest that kind of discrimination.
Not sure what you mean by the standards comment.
There is, however, a time and a place to nurse. Behavior is not the same as race or religion. You can easily breastfeed elsewhere. Businesses have the right to establish dress codes and enforce certain behavior restrictions. It's not discrimination. Protesting is always an option, but it's not always the most mature of options either.
A behavior that should be encouraged, not discouraged. Being offended by someone breastfeeding is not the most mature of options either, IMO. If they want to ban babies in their place, fine...But banning bfing when babies are allowed to be there and fed a bottle is discriminatory against bfing. Most states have laws that say a woman has a right to bf any place she otherwise has a right to be and if people don't want to see it, they don't have to look. Looking is a behavior too
Also, you can't always "easily breastfeed somewhere else"... In fact, getting up and leaving a place to go feed your baby is almost never easy. Even if you pump a bottle of milk for your baby, if you miss a scheduled feeding then you risk infection and supply issues and some babies just wont take bottles.
Honestly, I've bf my kids in church, at our older kid's elementary school, at the mall...Pretty much any where that I had to be and I've never gotten so much as a dirty look. I *think* because I wear a cardigan and just pull up my shirt and am quick about latching the babies on so no one realizes what I'm doing. My back and sides are covered by the cardigan, my belly and lower breast is covered by the baby, and the top of my chest is covered by the shirt...
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Again, there's a time and a place for it. It's not discouraging it to believe that it shouldn't just be done anywhere. If nobody minds, fine. But if the owner of a business asks it not to be done, that is their right. Just like it is your right to say what goes on in your home. Looking is a behavior? Nope, not gonna fly cause then you can justify indecent exposure too. If you start protesting because of not allowing BFing in public, you will force the hand of businesses and they'll just set age restrictions. In the end, you end up even worse off.
Well when you are breastfeeding, you have to plan. If you're in a business, you should come prepared. They'll need to be changed too and not all places have suitable changing areas. So they going to be forced to let you change the kid in front of everybody? Really appetizing if you're at a restaurant. Again, it's not a business' job to cater to your schedule. You have to be prepared.
Okay, so you got away with it. And if you get away with it, that's fine. Nobody's saying don't do what nobody minds you do. It's kind of an irrelevant point to say that you got away with it. lol
Well when you are breastfeeding, you have to plan. If you're in a business, you should come prepared. They'll need to be changed too and not all places have suitable changing areas. So they going to be forced to let you change the kid in front of everybody? Really appetizing if you're at a restaurant. Again, it's not a business' job to cater to your schedule. You have to be prepared.
Okay, so you got away with it. And if you get away with it, that's fine. Nobody's saying don't do what nobody minds you do. It's kind of an irrelevant point to say that you got away with it. lol
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Forgiveness_Man wrote:Again, there's a time and a place for it. It's not discouraging it to believe that it shouldn't just be done anywhere. Looking is a behavior? Nope, not gonna fly cause then you can justify indecent exposure too. If you start protesting because of not allowing BFing in public, you will force the hand of businesses and they'll just set age restrictions. In the end, you end up even worse off.
Well when you are breastfeeding, you have to plan. If you're in a business, you should come prepared. They'll need to be changed too and not all places have suitable changing areas. So they going to be forced to let you change the kid in front of everybody? Really appetizing if you're at a restaurant. Again, it's not a business' job to cater to your schedule. You have to be prepared.
Okay, so you got away with it. And if you get away with it, that's fine. Nobody's saying don't do what nobody minds you do. It's kind of an irrelevant point to say that you got away with it. lol
My point is not that it's something to "get away with"...It's not something that should have to be hidden under a cover is my point. Just because a woman doesn't drape a blanket over her shoulder that doesn't mean she has her boob hanging out for the world to see.
As for nudity...NO. It's not the same. Breastfeeding benefits society as a whole. It makes smarter, healthier kids...Saves our healthcare system money, reduces infant mortality, reduces obesity, reduces breast cancer rates, reduces rates of PPD, among other things. Public nudity doesn't do any of those things. Neither do peeing in public, having sex in public, or any of the other things like that that are listed as reasons why breastfeeding, even though it's "natural" should not be done in public.
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thepossiblepolice wrote:Forgiveness_Man wrote:Again, there's a time and a place for it. It's not discouraging it to believe that it shouldn't just be done anywhere. Looking is a behavior? Nope, not gonna fly cause then you can justify indecent exposure too. If you start protesting because of not allowing BFing in public, you will force the hand of businesses and they'll just set age restrictions. In the end, you end up even worse off.
Well when you are breastfeeding, you have to plan. If you're in a business, you should come prepared. They'll need to be changed too and not all places have suitable changing areas. So they going to be forced to let you change the kid in front of everybody? Really appetizing if you're at a restaurant. Again, it's not a business' job to cater to your schedule. You have to be prepared.
Okay, so you got away with it. And if you get away with it, that's fine. Nobody's saying don't do what nobody minds you do. It's kind of an irrelevant point to say that you got away with it. lol
My point is not that it's something to "get away with"...It's not something that should have to be hidden under a cover is my point. Just because a woman doesn't drape a blanket over her shoulder that doesn't mean she has her boob hanging out for the world to see.
As for nudity...NO. It's not the same. Breastfeeding benefits society as a whole. It makes smarter, healthier kids...Saves our healthcare system money, reduces infant mortality, reduces obesity, reduces breast cancer rates, reduces rates of PPD, among other things. Public nudity doesn't do any of those things. Neither do peeing in public, having sex in public, or any of the other things like that that are listed as reasons why breastfeeding, even though it's "natural" should not be done in public.
Let's say in theory that she does? MAybe she takes the "you don't have to look" idea to the extreme. THEN does a business have a right to be upset?
I am sure those who support them feel they have several benefits and will likely tout several. Also, PUBLIC breasfeeding has no more benefits than private breastfeeding. Nobody is saying that you cannot breastfeed. So the benefits of it are irrelevant. Eating benefits you too but many businesses prohibit food/drink in their establishments.(And I doubt they care if you are diabetic and need to eat at regular periods) As long as the store's policies are clear, I don't see the problem.
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Forgiveness_Man wrote:thepossiblepolice wrote:
My point is not that it's something to "get away with"...It's not something that should have to be hidden under a cover is my point. Just because a woman doesn't drape a blanket over her shoulder that doesn't mean she has her boob hanging out for the world to see.
As for nudity...NO. It's not the same. Breastfeeding benefits society as a whole. It makes smarter, healthier kids...Saves our healthcare system money, reduces infant mortality, reduces obesity, reduces breast cancer rates, reduces rates of PPD, among other things. Public nudity doesn't do any of those things. Neither do peeing in public, having sex in public, or any of the other things like that that are listed as reasons why breastfeeding, even though it's "natural" should not be done in public.
Let's say in theory that she does? MAybe she takes the "you don't have to look" idea to the extreme. THEN does a business have a right to be upset?
I am sure those who support them feel they have several benefits and will likely tout several. Also, PUBLIC breasfeeding has no more benefits than private breastfeeding. Nobody is saying that you cannot breastfeed. So the benefits of it are irrelevant. Eating benefits you too but many businesses prohibit food/drink in their establishments.(And I doubt they care if you are diabetic and need to eat at regular periods) As long as the store's policies are clear, I don't see the problem.
I think anyone has a right to be "upset" about anything that they want to be upset about, but they don't have the right to take action because of it. Our society has determined that breastfeeding is a protected activity, because of the benefits of breastfeeding.
I have been around a LOT of nursing women and I've never seen anyone like that though, so all of us women who want to just feed our babies as inconspicuously as possible so as to go about living our lives and taking care of our children the best way that we know how with as little disruption to the comfort of others should not be punished because of some hypothetical woman who wants to show off her boobs.
Public breastfeeding has the benefit of exposing people to breastfeeding so they wont think it's "weird", not people who are older and set in their ways, but in younger people, specifically potential mothers...The more people that breastfeed, the greater the benefit to society as a whole. On an individual basis, if you don't breastfeed in public, you are more likely to A. Feel trapped in your home which can lead to PPD or B. try to supplement with formula or pumped bm which can lead to reduced supply and mastitis.
In an ideal world every child would be bf to age two (that's the opinion of the AAP as well as the WHO) and women shouldn't be expected to stay at home for that whole time.
I think it's really interesting that we are so concerned over this here, meanwhile in places where women are required to cover up completely breastfeeding in public is totally normal and not considered to be a modesty issue at all.
As for people coming up with benefits to public urination and whatnot, they would have to stretch to find them, while the benefits of breastfeeding are well known and widely published.
Also, changing a diaper is not the same as feeding a baby. People eat in public all the time, but they don't expose everyone else to their poop.
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Many activities have benefits. That doesn't mean such activities are appropriate anywhere and everywhere. And if somebody owns a business, that should give them the right to restrict which behaviors they will permit in their place.
The question is a hypothetical one. Therefore a relatively extreme example is not absurd to present. If you do it with regard to the comfort of others, chances are that the business will not try to throw you out anyway. Most don't troll around looking for breastfeeding mothers.
The benefits of breastfeeding or consequences of not breastfeeding are irrelevant to this question. It's not a "to breastfeed or not to breastfeed" situation.
It's not the same but the merits are the same. Babies need to be changed. People eat in public all the time but they don't eat in every business establishment. This is also specifically about breastfeeding in a privately run establishment owned by somebody else. IMO, a business should have the right to say what does and doesn't go on within it's place of business. It's a privately run business. This isn't about breastfeeding in public at all. It's about business' rights.
The question is a hypothetical one. Therefore a relatively extreme example is not absurd to present. If you do it with regard to the comfort of others, chances are that the business will not try to throw you out anyway. Most don't troll around looking for breastfeeding mothers.
The benefits of breastfeeding or consequences of not breastfeeding are irrelevant to this question. It's not a "to breastfeed or not to breastfeed" situation.
It's not the same but the merits are the same. Babies need to be changed. People eat in public all the time but they don't eat in every business establishment. This is also specifically about breastfeeding in a privately run establishment owned by somebody else. IMO, a business should have the right to say what does and doesn't go on within it's place of business. It's a privately run business. This isn't about breastfeeding in public at all. It's about business' rights.
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RedBedroom wrote:... and since it is not common, I am not a fan of exceptions to the rule. ...
thepossiblepolice wrote: ... Public breastfeeding has the benefit of exposing people to breastfeeding so they wont think it's "weird", not people who are older and set in their ways, but in younger people, specifically potential mothers...
Possible (may I call you Possible?) I agree with everything you have been saying in this debate, but this little bit of activism is as valuable to our society as the nourishment is to infants and children. Just in this thread alone are shown the reasons why more women NEED to be seen doing what nature intended - to desensitize ppl to the sight of breastfeeding and show that it is normal and acceptable.
This is the same with gay ppl who hide in closets. They not only do a disservice to themselves, they do it to every other gay person by not letting the world know that we are common everyday ppl and we are normal.
There are all sorts of prejudicial mindsets that ppl form because they have not seen all the possibilities. Interracial couples are becoming more common now - as ppl start accepting that there is nothing wrong with it because they see more and more interracial couples.
That is how this kind of activism works and it is exponential in its effect. One person is seen doing it and soon another follows and eventually it becomes the norm.
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Forgiveness_Man wrote:Many activities have benefits. That doesn't mean such activities are appropriate anywhere and everywhere. And if somebody owns a business, that should give them the right to restrict which behaviors they will permit in their place.
The question is a hypothetical one. Therefore a relatively extreme example is not absurd to present. If you do it with regard to the comfort of others, chances are that the business will not try to throw you out anyway. Most don't troll around looking for breastfeeding mothers.
The benefits of breastfeeding or consequences of not breastfeeding are irrelevant to this question. It's not a "to breastfeed or not to breastfeed" situation.
It's not the same but the merits are the same. Babies need to be changed. People eat in public all the time but they don't eat in every business establishment. This is also specifically about breastfeeding in a privately run establishment owned by somebody else. IMO, a business should have the right to say what does and doesn't go on within it's place of business. It's a privately run business. This isn't about breastfeeding in public at all. It's about business' rights.
You're right, it's about whether businesses should have the right to discriminate against a person based on the way they feed their child.
The same way a business should have the right to not allow a woman in a burka into their business? The same way a business should be allowed to not allow gay and lesbian couples to have PDA's in their business? The same way they should be allowed to not allow interracial couples to have PDA's in their business? Those are all activities that it's not PC to discriminate against that are choices a person makes based on being part of a protected group; a certain religion, gay or lesbian, or race. It may not be illegal to be racist, homophobic or xenophobic, but that doesn't make it OK. Nursing women are legally protected, people can not like it, but they still are.
If a business allows children and bottle feeding, then banning breastfeeding is discriminatory against breastfeeding women.
If a business should always have a moral right to discriminate for whatever reason they want, or a legal right to the same, then I will agree that it should be within their rights to discriminate against breastfeeding women as well.
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Shale wrote:RedBedroom wrote:... and since it is not common, I am not a fan of exceptions to the rule. ...thepossiblepolice wrote: ... Public breastfeeding has the benefit of exposing people to breastfeeding so they wont think it's "weird", not people who are older and set in their ways, but in younger people, specifically potential mothers...
Possible (may I call you Possible?) I agree with everything you have been saying in this debate, but this little bit of activism is as valuable to our society as the nourishment is to infants and children. Just in this thread alone are shown the reasons why more women NEED to be seen doing what nature intended - to desensitize ppl to the sight of breastfeeding and show that it is normal and acceptable.
This is the same with gay ppl who hide in closets. They not only do a disservice to themselves, they do it to every other gay person by not letting the world know that we are common everyday ppl and we are normal.
There are all sorts of prejudicial mindsets that ppl form because they have not seen all the possibilities. Interracial couples are becoming more common now - as ppl start accepting that there is nothing wrong with it because they see more and more interracial couples.
That is how this kind of activism works and it is exponential in its effect. One person is seen doing it and soon another follows and eventually it becomes the norm.
Thanks You can call me whatever you want just let me know what it is so I know you're talking to me.
I totally agree and that is why I go to nurse in's with my twins, that's why I spoke to the newspaper about nursing and nursing in public and that's why I nurse in public without any shame.
People who haven't breastfed may not understand it, but when you experience it, you realize that it's not as easy as people think it is to NOT nurse in public. Therefore, most women who are unwilling to nurse in public (because of fear, most often, of other people's reactions)don't end up nursing for very long at all. All the solutions to not nursing in public have a negative effect on breastfeeding, directly or indirectly.
I feel like your comparisons are correct. Just like some people don't understand Gay Pride Day and stuff like that, they say "Why do you need to shove it in our faces? I don't care what you do in your bedroom but keep it in your bedroom..." Nursing in public is the same kind of thing. People are fine with breastfeeding as long as it fits into their idea of what is okay, whether it's where you do it, how long you do it or what you wear when you do it. The first thing that makes them a little uncomfortable though and they want you to disappear.
If there weren't people discriminating against us, we wouldn't NEED to have nurse in's.
OP: I apologize for hijacking your topic, if this is about BUSINESS RIGHTS ONLY maybe my input is irrelevant, but obviously this is a cause near and dear to my heart and I could go on forever about it.
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thepossiblepolice wrote:You're right, it's about whether businesses should have the right to discriminate against a person based on the way they feed their child.
The same way a business should have the right to not allow a woman in a burka into their business? The same way a business should be allowed to not allow gay and lesbian couples to have PDA's in their business? The same way they should be allowed to not allow interracial couples to have PDA's in their business? Those are all activities that it's not PC to discriminate against that are choices a person makes based on being part of a protected group; a certain religion, gay or lesbian, or race. It may not be illegal to be racist, homophobic or xenophobic, but that doesn't make it OK. Nursing women are legally protected, people can not like it, but they still are.
If a business allows children and bottle feeding, then banning breastfeeding is discriminatory against breastfeeding women.
If a business should always have a moral right to discriminate for whatever reason they want, or a legal right to the same, then I will agree that it should be within their rights to discriminate against breastfeeding women as well.
This is about the merits of said protection. The law protects a lot of things it probably shouldn't. A business shouldn't be forced to tolerate anything in it's own property that it doesn't want to. I am sure you wouldn't like the government telling you gotta allow guests in your house to do something you didn't like just because it had benefits.
Businesses have a right to expect certain behavior to be followed in their establishments. The law trying to tell them otherwise is merely a symptom of a greater problem.
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