thepossiblepolice wrote:

Forgiveness_Man wrote:

^^^^If every person who was guilty of sin was okay to be bullied, then that's be excuse for everyone to bully somebody else. People blame religion for their bullying but the truth is that most bullies are motivated by the same things regardless of who it is they target.

One would think so...But I think that homosexuality is targeted more so than other "sins". I don't hear anyone making a big deal about the things that they know they are guilty of; pride, lying, lust, jealousy...All are written off as "We're all sinners, that's why we need Jesus." If someone is homosexual though, I don't see a lot of people giving them a free pass.

Some denoms can be like that. But ultimately, if somebody is bullying, targeting one "motive" is futile because the real motive stems from why a person bullies in the first place. Trying to protect only one type of victim is just basically making it look like you're doing more to stop bullying than you ultimately will be.

Forgiveness_Man wrote:

thepossiblepolice wrote:

One would think so...But I think that homosexuality is targeted more so than other "sins". I don't hear anyone making a big deal about the things that they know they are guilty of; pride, lying, lust, jealousy...All are written off as "We're all sinners, that's why we need Jesus." If someone is homosexual though, I don't see a lot of people giving them a free pass.

Some denoms can be like that. But ultimately, if somebody is bullying, targeting one "motive" is futile because the real motive stems from why a person bullies in the first place. Trying to protect only one type of victim is just basically making it look like you're doing more to stop bullying than you ultimately will be.

I watched Sunday Morning yesterday and they were talking about this subject. They had a girl who was a bully on there and she and her mom didn't see the problem with it. Other kids had gotten better and spent 50% less time in the principals office for bullying after they implemented this anti-bullying program, but not this girl. When you saw her mom say "You have to stick up for yourself" and stuff like that, defending her, you saw why.

They also said that of all the things kids are bullied for, the most often and the one that seemed like the most harmful was calling people gay. The boy that this girl had been bullying recently she was calling him gay. She basically was forcing this 12 year old kid to announce his sexuality to his whole class, when he may not even KNOW yet. I felt so bad for him, he was just a cute little boy who hadn't gone through puberty yet

^^^^ People make too many excuses for the bullies.

It's harmful to call somebody gay? Kids insult each other with 'gay,' all the time. I hardly feel that equates to bullies somebody for being homosexual. Kids bully other kids because they themselves have issues. If you just try to make kids more tolerant of homosexuality, you'll just force them to come up with another word to insult their prey. Focusing on only one group of victims is basically equivalent to burying your head in the sand and giving the bullies free reign to basically do what they want. You gotta target the problem of bullying as a whole, not just one type of victim. If you don't focus on the whole problem, you're really not focusing on it at all.

Forgiveness_Man wrote:

^^^^ People make too many excuses for the bullies.

It's harmful to call somebody gay? Kids insult each other with 'gay,' all the time. I hardly feel that equates to bullies somebody for being homosexual. Kids bully other kids because they themselves have issues. If you just try to make kids more tolerant of homosexuality, you'll just force them to come up with another word to insult their prey. Focusing on only one group of victims is basically equivalent to burying your head in the sand and giving the bullies free reign to basically do what they want. You gotta target the problem of bullying as a whole, not just one type of victim. If you don't focus on the whole problem, you're really not focusing on it at all.

The program was talking about a specific program at a middle school that was having modest success at stopping bullying behavior. The girl said to the boy, in the middle of class..."Are you gay?" over and over and he tried to ignore her then she said "You're gay aren't you?" and he finally said no...She continued to harass him until he finally went to the teacher and she got sent to the principals office.

I do think that people are bullied for all different things and it's the bullies with the issues, not the people being bullied, but I found it interesting that they said that well over 50% of the cases of bullying is about perceived homosexuality, in light of our discussion here.

I really just wanted to shake that girls mom though, SHE is the problem, imo. She actually was a little proud of her daughter for the way she is, in spite of numerous other parents calling the school because their kids are afraid of her.

She sounds like she's less concerned with whether or not he's gay or more concerned with just being a shrew.

I don't think it's about perceived homosexuality at all. I think "gay" is just an excuse to make them seem weaker. I highly doubt they really believe said kid is attracted to kids of the same sex. It's just a way to make them feel weaker. Control is the key, not sexual orientation. I don't deny that there is honest homophobic bullying, but I am not convinced it makes up more than half of all cases.

Parents typically are the problem; they enable their kids. I wonder if that mother would be singing the same tune if somebody decided to fight back against her daughter. (Wait, I don't have to wonder. She'd be in court trying to get the other kid arrested)

Forgiveness_Man wrote:

She sounds like she's less concerned with whether or not he's gay or more concerned with just being a shrew.

I don't think it's about perceived homosexuality at all. I think "gay" is just an excuse to make them seem weaker. I highly doubt they really believe said kid is attracted to kids of the same sex. It's just a way to make them feel weaker. Control is the key, not sexual orientation. I don't deny that there is honest homophobic bullying, but I am not convinced it makes up more than half of all cases.

Parents typically are the problem; they enable their kids. I wonder if that mother would be singing the same tune if somebody decided to fight back against her daughter. (Wait, I don't have to wonder. She'd be in court trying to get the other kid arrested)

^^^^When victims fight back against bullies, THEN the school wants to punish misbehaving. lol

Forgiveness_Man wrote:

^^^^When victims fight back against bullies, THEN the school wants to punish misbehaving. lol

You know how they always say bullies feed on fear and all that? On the show, the girls mom kept saying "They aren't afraid of her, they always tell her that they aren't afraid of her..." and the girl said "They aren't afraid of me..." and the reporter asked how she knew that and she said "Because they tell me." The reporter asked why they had to tell her that and she said because she said she was going to beat them up.

So basically, the bullied kids were doing what they are supposed to do and not show fear, and she and her mom were using it as "evidence" that she wasn't a bully.

thepossiblepolice wrote:

Forgiveness_Man wrote:

^^^^When victims fight back against bullies, THEN the school wants to punish misbehaving. lol

You know how they always say bullies feed on fear and all that? On the show, the girls mom kept saying "They aren't afraid of her, they always tell her that they aren't afraid of her..." and the girl said "They aren't afraid of me..." and the reporter asked how she knew that and she said "Because they tell me." The reporter asked why they had to tell her that and she said because she said she was going to beat them up.

So basically, the bullied kids were doing what they are supposed to do and not show fear, and she and her mom were using it as "evidence" that she wasn't a bully.

I think somebody should've challenged the mom what she'd do if one of her victims fought back and beat her up. Then they'd have recorded evidence that she is either a hypocrite or gave permission.

Forgiveness Man wrote:

Statistics said that gay kids are more likely to be bullied than straight kids. Common sense given that there are more straight kids and thus less of them would be bullied.

Uh, actually that's NOW how statistics work at all. Common sense ACTUALLY says that the MORE you have of something, the MORE likely it would be for it to experience something (not LESS). You're confusing raw numbers with "per capita" numbers. Statistically, there are MORE straight kids yet a lower percentage of them get bullied while a higher percentage of gay kids (of which there are less of) do. In addition, many of the straight kids who get bullied are bullied because they are perceived to be gay. I know several straight kids that were bullied by being called "fag" and "queer" as well. So your statistical argument doesn't work at all.

Forgiveness Man wrote:

That doesn't mean being gay is the reason more than any other combined. It just means the other kids don't have a single unifying factor they are bullied for.

Logically, that would also mean that being gay is the single MOST common motive for bullies to target other kids.

Forgiveness Man wrote:

Bring it up to illustrate a point. If nobody got the hate crime label, I wouldn't want those three being given it.

So you're wanting them to apply in these specific cases are "conditional"? You can't have it both ways dude! Either you agree with something always or you don't. White people get charged with hate crimes and so do black people. The point I'm making is that in either case, it is FAIR. If you don't like the "hate crime" label, then just say that. But don't say that it's an unfair system because it's not. I've already demonstrated it to be equal oppertunity.

Forgiveness Man wrote:

But that's not the first motive. It's one motive among many.(I dont see those statistics contradicting this) Targeting one motive is like expecting to stop crime by targeting one weapon.

They are not targetting a motive, they are targetting BULLYING. How many times do I have to repeat that. They are merely calling attention to the fact that gays are bullied more often because its a more serious problem. Again, 4 gay kids killed themeselves due to bullying. That was a "wake up call" which is why so much attention has been focused on that aspect. The overall problem is bullying itself.

[quote="Forgiveness ManIt's harmful to call somebody gay? Kids insult each other with 'gay,' all the time. I hardly feel that equates to bullies somebody for being homosexual.[/quote]Then this is more proof that you don't in fact "get it". Because that is exactly what using "gay" as an insult does: attacks people because of their sexuality. Gay happens to be a sexual orientation. If you are using that as an insult, that is what you are attacking! The phrase "that's so gay" is NEVER used as a compliment (whether it happens to be specifically referring to someone's sexuality or not). It's ALWAYS used in a derogatory way. Replace the word "gay" with "Jew", "black", "Muslim" or "Mexican" whenever you hear someone say it, then ask yourself if you think it sounds acceptable. You'd probably say no! But yet you defend it when "gay" is used?

Forgiveness Man wrote:

Kids bully other kids because they themselves have issues. If you just try to make kids more tolerant of homosexuality, you'll just force them to come up with another word to insult their prey.

Even if your theory was correct (it's not by the way, it's actually totally wrong but I'm going to humor you for a second), random derogator words like "stupid", "ugly", "dumb", "weak", etc are equal oppertunity words that do not single out someone's sexual orientation. On the other hand, if a kid in school insulted someone elses race or religion, you wouldn't be making this argument.

Forgiveness Man wrote:

Focusing on only one group of victims is basically equivalent to burying your head in the sand and giving the bullies free reign to basically do what they want. You gotta target the problem of bullying as a whole, not just one type of victim. If you don't focus on the whole problem, you're really not focusing on it at all.

I actually agree with you on this point. But I think you are the one who is assuming that attention is being focused ONLY on "anti gay" bullying.