Should the Boy Scouts have the right to ban gays and atheists?

The scouts have a pretty unyielding stance against the acceptance of homosexuality, and do not allow openly gay members (or scout leaders.) Do you think that they should have the legal right to mandate such a policy?

Yes I do. It's their club. If you dont like it, start your own boys club.

Chris wrote:The scouts have a pretty unyielding stance against the acceptance of homosexuality, and do not allow openly gay members (or scout leaders.) Do you think that they should have the legal right to mandate such a policy?

YES! I don't think any self respecting gay person would wanna be in a hate group BUT just to drive the point home anyways, if they're gonna discriminate against ANYONE then they should lose any and ALL public funding. This isn't the 50's where discrimination should be at all tolerated.

If they have the right to ban someone for being gay, then they should have the right to ban based on race & religion. So even though it's "their" club that creates a bit of a problem. Like Robbie said though, I don't know who would even want to be in such a bigoted group. Also agree that any group who excludes & discriminates against certain people should lose every penny of public funding.

RobbieFTW wrote:

Chris wrote:The scouts have a pretty unyielding stance against the acceptance of homosexuality, and do not allow openly gay members (or scout leaders.) Do you think that they should have the legal right to mandate such a policy?

YES! I don't think any self respecting gay person would wanna be in a hate group BUT just to drive the point home anyways, if they're gonna discriminate against ANYONE then they should lose any and ALL public funding. This isn't the 50's where discrimination should be at all tolerated.

I've been in this debate for years and I have to agree that legally, they have the right to discriminate as a private org. However, they should not be allowed to use public school, police or fire dept. property for free which my taxes support and which come under the government non-discrimination rules. And I don't think they should have tax exempt status as a discriminating private org.

Also, lost in the gay debate ppl should not forget that they do discriminate on religious basis. I was involved in the BSA in the '60s but could not become an official assistant Scoutmaster because I was an Atheist at the time. The BSA calls itself tolerant by acknowledging any religion, Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Hindu - but you must have a religion. To me, that is intolerance and discrimination. Oh, they prolly have a problem with Wicca also.

RobbieFTW wrote:

Chris wrote:The scouts have a pretty unyielding stance against the acceptance of homosexuality, and do not allow openly gay members (or scout leaders.) Do you think that they should have the legal right to mandate such a policy?

YES! I don't think any self respecting gay person would wanna be in a hate group BUT just to drive the point home anyways, if they're gonna discriminate against ANYONE then they should lose any and ALL public funding. This isn't the 50's where discrimination should be at all tolerated.

I guess they have the right, but yeah....all public monies should be yanked. If you're gonna operate on discrimination, then you shouldn't benefit from any outside funds or benefits.

No, they should not have that right to ban gay members or scout leaders. That's just sick. Why would any parent allow their child to be part of such a club? That's disgusting.

Shale wrote:

RobbieFTW wrote:

YES! I don't think any self respecting gay person would wanna be in a hate group BUT just to drive the point home anyways, if they're gonna discriminate against ANYONE then they should lose any and ALL public funding. This isn't the 50's where discrimination should be at all tolerated.

I've been in this debate for years and I have to agree that legally, they have the right to discriminate as a private org. However, they should not be allowed to use public school, police or fire dept. property for free which my taxes support and which come under the government non-discrimination rules. And I don't think they should have tax exempt status as a discriminating private org.

Also, lost in the gay debate ppl should not forget that they do discriminate on religious basis. I was involved in the BSA in the '60s but could not become an official assistant Scoutmaster because I was an Atheist at the time. The BSA calls itself tolerant by acknowledging any religion, Christian, Muslim, Jew, Buddhist, Hindu - but you must have a religion. To me, that is intolerance and discrimination. Oh, they prolly have a problem with Wicca also.

And yet that side then makes ridiculous statements that atheism is a religion.

*sigh*

I didn't even realize they still had that policy, or the religion one...Guess we wont be joining Cub Scouts after all.

Forgiveness Man wrote:Yes I do. It's their club. If you dont like it, start your own boys club.

I would agree that as a private organization the Boy scouts of America have the right to restrict membership to those who adhere to their rather strict guidelines....

Except for the fact that they routinely get money, supplies, use of property at no cost and other freebies from the Federal, State and Local Government.

Example: The United States Army has kept open and maintains a military base of no strategic military value, solely for the use of the Boy Scouts. States make parks and other amenities available to the Boy Scouts that any other "private group" would have to pay for. Most cities give the Boy Scouts free use of the schools for meetings, and free access to the schools for recruitment purposes.

I find it highly offensive that my tax dollars are going to support an organization that practices discrimination.

Rainmaker wrote:

Forgiveness Man wrote:Yes I do. It's their club. If you dont like it, start your own boys club.

I would agree that as a private organization the Boy scouts of America have the right to restrict membership to those who adhere to their rather strict guidelines....

Except for the fact that they routinely get money, supplies, use of property at no cost and other freebies from the Federal, State and Local Government.

Example: The United States Army has kept open and maintains a military base of no strategic military value, solely for the use of the Boy Scouts. States make parks and other amenities available to the Boy Scouts that any other "private group" would have to pay for. Most cities give the Boy Scouts free use of the schools for meetings, and free access to the schools for recruitment purposes.

I find it highly offensive that my tax dollars are going to support an organization that practices discrimination.

QFT.

Much as I deplore discrimination, the scouts are a private club, and private clubs are well within their rights to be discriminating when it comes to membership requirements; however, and this is a big damn however, the scouts have historically been allowed to use public funding and property. If they want to discriminate against a segment of greater society, they had better make certain that they are doing it on private property (owned by themselves, the Catholic church or the Ku Klux Klan) and that they are not accepting outside/government donations. Then they can discriminate all they want. As long as they have no interaction with the rest of society as a whole.

I think they do have the right to.

The Boy Scouts are based on a set of basic values. If someone does not agree with these values, then there is no reason at all why the Boy Scouts should accept him as a member, nor does it make sense for such a person to even want to join them. Why would you want to join an organization that disagrees with your principals or whole being??? If they wanna push a value system that entails a belief in, and reverence for God; and being “morally straight”, then let them. Are gays and atheists ass out of other groups that are more universal OR specifically targeted towards them? No!

Rainmaker wrote:I find it highly offensive that my tax dollars are going to support an organization that practices discrimination.

Well I don't like everything tax dollars go to so I guess we'll just have to deal.

Discrimination is sometimes an overused phrase; you do not have a right to join the boy scouts and they have no obligation to let you in. I am a little tired of this notion that people are somehow entitled to gain entry into wherever they want. We only care about discrimination sometimes but we really practice it every day and support it's practice every day. We just don't care about it unless it involves specific groups cause then that "changes" everything. But the sad fact is that we all discriminate and are all fine with it when it's politically correct to do so.

Side note: The boy scouts also discriminate against anybody without a penis. That's right, you gotta have a penis to be a boy scout. Oh the horror! If discrimination means you shouldn't get tax dollars, than tax dollars should probably not even be collected cause then it would truly be impossible to give it to anybody validly.

Forgiveness Man wrote:

Rainmaker wrote:I find it highly offensive that my tax dollars are going to support an organization that practices discrimination.

Well I don't like everything tax dollars go to so I guess we'll just have to deal.

Discrimination is sometimes an overused phrase; you do not have a right to join the boy scouts and they have no obligation to let you in. I am a little tired of this notion that people are somehow entitled to gain entry into wherever they want. We only care about discrimination sometimes but we really practice it every day and support it's practice every day. We just don't care about it unless it involves specific groups cause then that "changes" everything. But the sad fact is that we all discriminate and are all fine with it when it's politically correct to do so.

Side note: The boy scouts also discriminate against anybody without a penis. That's right, you gotta have a penis to be a boy scout. Oh the horror! If discrimination means you shouldn't get tax dollars, than tax dollars should probably not even be collected cause then it would truly be impossible to give it to anybody validly.

You can have a vagina and be a boy scout leader though...I guess a gay guy is less capable of teaching boys how to be a good man then a woman is.

thepossiblepolice wrote:You can have a vagina and be a boy scout leader though...I guess a gay guy is less capable of teaching boys how to be a good man then a woman is.

It's not about who is more qualified. It's about a group's right to decide who it wants to let in. Frankly I don't even know why you'd want to join a group that doesn't want you anyway.

Forgiveness Man wrote:

thepossiblepolice wrote:You can have a vagina and be a boy scout leader though...I guess a gay guy is less capable of teaching boys how to be a good man then a woman is.

It's not about who is more qualified. It's about a group's right to decide who it wants to let in. Frankly I don't even know why you'd want to join a group that doesn't want you anyway.

I don't. Honestly as long as they are a private club, I say whatever. Have the nazi club for all I care. I do have a problem with the fliers that they send home from school though, now my son wants to join Cub Scouts, which is held in the school gym after school by the way, and I have to decide whether I want to support HIM in his wishes, along with a club that I'm morally opposed to, or explain to him that I don't want him associated with a group that has values that IMO are wrong.

^^^^It's a defining moment for you as a parent.

Forgiveness Man wrote:^^^^It's a defining moment for you as a parent.

...we'll see.

^^^^I am curious to see what you'll do.

Forgiveness Man wrote:^^^^I am curious to see what you'll do.

I just talked to him about it. I told him that we needed to have a talk about the Cub Scouts, then we talked about how different people have different religions or no religion and how we are accepting of all of them, then we talked about how there were gay people (he said "yeah, when a person wants to be with a person who is the same as them") and then I told him that I just realized that the Cub Scouts wont allow you to be involved with them if you don't have a religion or if you are gay, and asked what he thought of that. He said it wasn't fair. Then I asked him if he thought that we should get involved with them and give them our support even though we think they are not fair. Then he said "Why can't we just find a Boy Scout troop that isn't that way?" and we talked about how "The Boy Scouts" are a specific thing, like "Lego" is to "Best Lock" (he goes to Lego club and they all know about generic bricks too)...There may be other clubs for boys but they aren't called The Boy Scouts, but every club that is called "The Boy Scouts" has to follow the rules that the government of the organization sets.

Then he asked if there are any other clubs for boys that do similar things, and I said I would google it and try to find out, before we decided what to do.

I told him that he didn't need to go up to any of his friends and say anything about it to them, he asked why, I told him because it might hurt their feelings if he was pointing out things that he didn't like about their club. Then he said that he wished there was a law that said that they weren't allowed to do that, I said I wished that their could be too, but we don't want too many laws about EVERYTHING because it would be hard to keep track and we might accidentally break them and that wouldn't be fair either.

Then he asked who the government was and I tried to explain the different branches, then he told me that his friend told him that President Obama smoked and asked if that was illegal and if President Obama would get fired because of it. LOL. I told him that I thought Obama had quit smoking and that no he wont get fired, Obama is only human and no human is perfect and everybody makes mistakes.

So I guess it depends on the alternatives available whether he will be "okay" with not being in Cub Scouts or not, and from there, Josh and I have to decide whether we will allow him to be involved with them if he decides that he DOES want to.

^^^^Obama will get fired, just not by congress. But that's a story for a different day.

There should hardly be a law saying they can't do that. IMO, it's discrimination to say they gotta abide by YOUR rules. Thus you're a hypocrite if you try to force them to change.

I think it's a great idea to find a different club. If you don't like the rules of one club, find another. It's silly to expect any club to bend to your will. Good luck with finding one that you can feel comfortable joining.

Yeah, I agree, but I think that particular distinction is still over his head.

I'm sure we'll find one We already have Lego Club, we can start our own if need be.

thepossiblepolice wrote:

I just talked to him about it. I told him that we needed to have a talk about the Cub Scouts, then we talked about how different people have different religions or no religion and how we are accepting of all of them, then we talked about how there were gay people (he said "yeah, when a person wants to be with a person who is the same as them") and then I told him that I just realized that the Cub Scouts wont allow you to be involved with them if you don't have a religion or if you are gay, and asked what he thought of that. He said it wasn't fair. Then I asked him if he thought that we should get involved with them and give them our support even though we think they are not fair. Then he said "Why can't we just find a Boy Scout troop that isn't that way?" and we talked about how "The Boy Scouts" are a specific thing, like "Lego" is to "Best Lock" (he goes to Lego club and they all know about generic bricks too)...There may be other clubs for boys but they aren't called The Boy Scouts, but every club that is called "The Boy Scouts" has to follow the rules that the government of the organization sets.

Then he asked if there are any other clubs for boys that do similar things, and I said I would google it and try to find out, before we decided what to do.

I told him that he didn't need to go up to any of his friends and say anything about it to them, he asked why, I told him because it might hurt their feelings if he was pointing out things that he didn't like about their club. Then he said that he wished there was a law that said that they weren't allowed to do that, I said I wished that their could be too, but we don't want too many laws about EVERYTHING because it would be hard to keep track and we might accidentally break them and that wouldn't be fair either.

Then he asked who the government was and I tried to explain the different branches, then he told me that his friend told him that President Obama smoked and asked if that was illegal and if President Obama would get fired because of it. LOL. I told him that I thought Obama had quit smoking and that no he wont get fired, Obama is only human and no human is perfect and everybody makes mistakes.

So I guess it depends on the alternatives available whether he will be "okay" with not being in Cub Scouts or not, and from there, Josh and I have to decide whether we will allow him to be involved with them if he decides that he DOES want to.

I'd say you're doing a good job. He sounds like a great kid.

Good for you TPP