Forgiveness Man wrote:

^^^^Nice point about spanking. That's a great comparison! Parents have a right to spank their children when they get out of line. We don't need busybodies telling parents they can't spank their kids when they get out of line. People gotta start seeing what real abuse is and stop seeing abuse where it isn't, such as spanking and circumcision. It'll get to the point where real abuse will not be believed because people cry wolf.

I say it is a parent's business. It's their right to do it. The idea of circumcision being abusive is something you personally feel is true. In that case, don't do it to your son. But don't force your views on other people. Parents "forcing views" and busybody strangers forcing views are are different topics. So at the end of the day, I say leave it up to the parents. That's what it's really down to. If you don't like it, don't do it to your kid. Just butt out of other people's lives.

When people believe that something is unjust, they have the option of speaking out about it. That's not being a busy body, it's standing up for what you believe in.

I personally believe that cutting off a part of a human being's body for no good reason (without their consent) is morally wrong. I also believe that spanking is morally wrong. I'm not going to just sit around keeping my mouth shut when either of those topics come up because I feel like both are unjust.

IMO it's the same as people who are pro-life speaking out about that. Technically it's none of their business if a woman chooses to abort, but those who feel that the child in question has a right to life would say that the right of the child to not be aborted is more important than the woman's right to abort.

I feel that males have the right to not be mutilated without their consent or a medical reason. IMO that right is more important than the parent's right to do with their child what they wish.

^^^^It can be being a busybody if their beliefs about what is unjust aren't founded on anything sturdy.

Well circumcision is hardly akin to removing an arm and spanking is hardly akin to child abuse. If you're morally opposed to those things, don't do them and encourage others not to do them. But you don't have a right to try to tell random strangers how to raise their kids.

Aborting a child ends it's life. Spanking a child causes a temporary discomfort for bad behavior. Circumcision is a minor procedure. Sorry, but those two are hardly akin to ending a life. That's the problem I have with blurring distinctions. They try to compare dissimilar things to each other.

I don't feel circumcision is mutilation at all and I think it's best to do it before the child will ever remember it. I feel it is within a parent's rights and not mutilation at all. At the very least, it's hardly comparable to kill the child. Being against killing or abusing the child is admirable because it actually deals with something serious. Telling other people how to raise their kids is another, and that is essentially what this is.

How would you feel if the opposite were true? What if people tried to force you to circumcise your sons for reasons of hygiene and called it negligent to leave them with (...they list the negatives of a foreskin...). You'd be well within your rights to tell them to shove off. Both sides could produce witnesses for their case though. I don't see it as any different.

With a case like abortion, you're dealing with actual attempts to end a life. With circumcision, it's nowhere near that case. It is and should remain a parent's choice and I can no more support prohibiting a parent from doing it than I can forcing them to. It's not your kid and it's not a serious threat them. Therefore, I feel it's a parent's right. When a parent is trying to kill or injure their child, then we can be upset.

Forgiveness Man wrote:

^^^^Nice point about spanking.

I thought so. Unfortunately, you completely missed it.

Forgiveness Man wrote:

People gotta start seeing what real abuse is and stop seeing abuse where it isn't, such as spanking and circumcision. It'll get to the point where real abuse will not be believed because people cry wolf.

Translation: My opinion of what classifies "abuse" is the only one that matters and everyone else is stupid. What an open mind you have!

Forgiveness Man wrote:

The idea of circumcision being abusive is something you personally feel is true. In that case, don't do it to your son. But don't force your views on other people.

That goes without saying. But again you miss the point. If you believed that starving a 4 year old was abuse, obviously you wouldn't do it to your own kid. But if you had any sense of integrity, you'd see to it that your neighbor wasn't doing that to their kid either. It's not a matter of forcing "views" on other people. It's about standing up for what's right and wrong. Forced circumcision is not a medically justifiable surgery and because it's medically unethical it is also therefore abuse. You choose not to see it that way, but I have every right to call out nonsense when I see it. I'm sure you'd want to force your anti abortion views on everyone else (because that just so happens to be a issue that you are against). That's perfectly okay, but when someone calls out something that you agree with as being "wrong" all of a sudden they are "forcing their views on you". Kind of hypocritical if you ask me!

Forgiveness Man wrote:

Parents "forcing views" and busybody strangers forcing views are are different topics.

Only in your mind. In reality, it's pretty much the same thing. Again, if it's not YOURS it shouldn't be any of your business (whether you are a parent or not).

Forgiveness Man wrote:

^^^^It can be being a busybody if their beliefs about what is unjust aren't founded on anything sturdy.

Who determines what is "sturdy" Forgiveness Man?

Forgiveness Man wrote:

Well circumcision is hardly akin to removing an arm and spanking is hardly akin to child abuse. If you're morally opposed to those things, don't do them and encourage others not to do them. But you don't have a right to try to tell random strangers how to raise their kids.

First of all nobody has done that! All we are doing is encouraging others not to do them and lobbying to make it illegal. You can raise your kids however you want so long as that complies with the law. Secondly, opinions are like assholes, everybody has one. I don't take a stance on what OTHER people believe, only on what I believe. You don't think circumcision or spanking is abuse, I do. So who wins? The answer is I DO. And as long as that's the case, I'm going to continue to speak out against it until eventually it goes away.

Forgiveness Man wrote:

Aborting a child ends it's life.

That's only if you choose to view a fetus as a "life". You do, other people don't. Either way, you are using circular logic. If you are against abortion, don't do it. What right do you have to tell others that they can't? You see, it works both ways!

Forgiveness Man wrote:

Circumcision is a minor procedure.

Sorry, but it's not. You've obviously never seen one before. I suggest you do before making points based on fallacies in the future! Here, let me help you!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDuDhkiDdns

Forgiveness Man wrote:

I don't feel circumcision is mutilation at all and I think it's best to do it before the child will ever remember it.

And I think it's best not to do things that are completely unnecessary (especially when they are painful, carry certain risks and involve SOMEONE ELSE).

captainbryce wrote:

Forgiveness Man wrote:

^^^^It can be being a busybody if their beliefs about what is unjust aren't founded on anything sturdy.

Who determines what is "sturdy" Forgiveness Man?

Forgiveness Man wrote:

Well circumcision is hardly akin to removing an arm and spanking is hardly akin to child abuse. If you're morally opposed to those things, don't do them and encourage others not to do them. But you don't have a right to try to tell random strangers how to raise their kids.

First of all nobody has done that! All we are doing is encouraging others not to do them and lobbying to make it illegal. You can raise your kids however you want so long as that complies with the law. Secondly, opinions are like assholes, everybody has one. I don't take a stance on what OTHER people believe, only on what I believe. You don't think circumcision or spanking is abuse, I do. So who wins? The answer is I DO. And as long as that's the case, I'm going to continue to speak out against it until eventually it goes away.

Forgiveness Man wrote:

Aborting a child ends it's life.

That's only if you choose to view a fetus as a "life". You do, other people don't. Either way, you are using circular logic. If you are against abortion, don't do it. What right do you have to tell others that they can't? You see, it works both ways!

Forgiveness Man wrote:

Circumcision is a minor procedure.

Sorry, but it's not. You've obviously never seen one before. I suggest you do before making points based on fallacies in the future! Here, let me help you!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDuDhkiDdns

Forgiveness Man wrote:

I don't feel circumcision is mutilation at all and I think it's best to do it before the child will ever remember it.

And I think it's best not to do things that are completely unnecessary (especially when they are painful, carry certain risks and involve SOMEONE ELSE).

Thank you, I agree 100%

If you believe something is wrong, there is nothing wrong with fighting against it. If enough people agree then it will become either law or the new societal norm, if not enough people agree then it wont. The option to speak our mind and affect change about things that we feel strongly about is one of the great benefits of living in a democracy with free speech.

@Bryce: Lobbying to make it illegal is you shoving your views on somebody else.

Couldn't the same be said of you Bryce? You say you can't stop somebody from having an abortion but are lobbying to prohibit circumcision? Clearly YOU can distinguish a difference between the two, so why can't I do the same? Nobody is being killed in circumcision, so my argument is not circular. I just distinguish between murder/severe abuse and things which busybodies want to stick their nose into.

I don't have to see one. It's irrelevant and only a smokescreen. It speaks nothing to it not being your business if someone wants to have their kid circumcised.

We ALL do things that are completely unnecessary. It's not your place to say what unnecessary things a parent cannot do. It's not comparable to murder/abortion(but if it was, you would also be guilty of the things you said about me). In the end, it's just trying to impose personal views on other people.

@TPP: You know that the majority of people could be for circumcision and it wouldn't make one iota of difference in what the law says.

Forgiveness Man wrote:

@Bryce: Lobbying to make it illegal is you shoving your views on somebody else.

We've been over that already. People like you lobby to make abortion illegal. There is no difference. Either you are shoving your views in someone elses face or you aren't. The particular view in question is irrelvant. And if your particular view can be justified according to medical ethics, then shoving it in someone elses face is also justified!

Forgiveness Man wrote:

Couldn't the same be said of you Bryce? You say you can't stop somebody from having an abortion but are lobbying to prohibit circumcision? Clearly YOU can distinguish a difference between the two, so why can't I do the same?

No, the same can't be said of me. First of all, I never actually gave my stance on abortion. I happen to be rather neutral about it (but largely lean pro-life). I believe that anti-abortion people (like you) have every right to lobby to make it illegal and that there are ethical justifications for doing that. But that's not my point. The point is, I'm not being a hypocrite by saying that it's okay to force your belief about one thing down someone elses throat, but not about something else. That is what you are doing! You like to pick and choose and you can't have it both ways. Some people don't view a fetus as being a "person" and therefore don't consider abortion to be murder. That is their opinion which they are entitled to, just like you are entitled to the opinion that circumcision is harmless and doesn't represent a type of physical assualt on an infant. Both views are rather shortsighted in my opinion, but whatever. At least I'm consistent. You are not!

Forgiveness Man wrote:

Nobody is being killed in circumcision, so my argument is not circular. I just distinguish between murder/severe abuse and things which busybodies want to stick their nose into.

Your argument IS circular because You can't call other people busy bodies if you are also going to be a busy body. If you think it's okay to lobby against abortion on ethical grounds, then other people should also be able to lobby against circumcision on ethical grounds. Whether or not a person is being "killed" or not (which is still only a personal opinion, not a matter of fact according to the law) is irrelevant. Babies also die during circumcisions and irrespective of that fact, its still a type of physical assault done on someone else at the parents wishes. I consider anything harmful done on someone else for no medical benefit to that person unethical (whether it results in their death or not).

Forgiveness Man wrote:

We ALL do things that are completely unnecessary. It's not your place to say what unnecessary things a parent cannot do.

Then you are a hypocrite if you are against abortion.

Forgiveness Man wrote:

It's not comparable to murder/abortion(but if it was, you would also be guilty of the things you said about me).

No I'm not (for reasons given above).

Forgiveness Man wrote:

You know that the majority of people could be for circumcision and it wouldn't make one iota of difference in what the law says.

Of course it does! Who do you think determines what the law is? THE PEOPLE DO! If enough people are for the passing of a certain law, eventually it is passed so long as it doesn't violate the constitution. That's how laws are made in this country!

Chris wrote:

So what's your opinion on circumcision? If you were having a baby boy, would you get him snipped? Why or why not?

Hell no! Foreskin does too many good things, lol. I wouldn't want to take that away from my kid. Plus, I don't think most people are doing it anymore. The trend has been dying off lately so by the time I have kids he'll be in the majority.

Forgiveness Man wrote:

@Bryce: Lobbying to make it illegal is you shoving your views...
@TPP: You know that the majority of people could be for circumcision and it wouldn't make one iota of difference in what the law says.

If lobbying to change a law is being a busy body, then all of our initiatives are written by busy bodies. Were the people who fought to end slavery busy bodies? What about the people who fought for women's rights and made DV illegal?

If so, then I guess I'll happily be a busy body I'd rather do what I can to make the world a better place in whatever small way that I can, then sit around thinking "I don't believe that this is just but I'm going to just pretend it's not happening..."

As far as public opinion and the law, I think that if you are right, then it's because each foreskin collected is worth over five hundred dollars or something like that and money talks. I would like to believe that the people have the power to change laws if enough people agree. That could be naive though.

thepossiblepolice wrote:

Forgiveness Man wrote:

@Bryce: Lobbying to make it illegal is you shoving your views...
@TPP: You know that the majority of people could be for circumcision and it wouldn't make one iota of difference in what the law says.

If lobbying to change a law is being a busy body, then all of our initiatives are written by busy bodies. Were the people who fought to end slavery busy bodies? What about the people who fought for women's rights and made DV illegal?

If so, then I guess I'll happily be a busy body I'd rather do what I can to make the world a better place in whatever small way that I can, then sit around thinking "I don't believe that this is just but I'm going to just pretend it's not happening..."

As far as public opinion and the law, I think that if you are right, then it's because each foreskin collected is worth over five hundred dollars or something like that and money talks. I would like to believe that the people have the power to change laws if enough people agree. That could be naive though.

wesley wrote:

Chris wrote:

So what's your opinion on circumcision? If you were having a baby boy, would you get him snipped? Why or why not?

Hell no! Foreskin does too many good things, lol. I wouldn't want to take that away from my kid. Plus, I don't think most people are doing it anymore. The trend has been dying off lately so by the time I have kids he'll be in the majority.

Does it pay rent?

Dark Oblivion wrote:

wesley wrote:

Hell no! Foreskin does too many good things, lol. I wouldn't want to take that away from my kid. Plus, I don't think most people are doing it anymore. The trend has been dying off lately so by the time I have kids he'll be in the majority.

Does it pay rent?

Dark Oblivion wrote:

wesley wrote:

Hell no! Foreskin does too many good things, lol. I wouldn't want to take that away from my kid. Plus, I don't think most people are doing it anymore. The trend has been dying off lately so by the time I have kids he'll be in the majority.

Does it pay rent?

No, but it does many other things and has many other advantages to it. The point is, cutting it off isn't necessarily the best thing to do considering what you could be losing by doing that.

Dark Oblivion wrote:

wesley wrote:

Hell no! Foreskin does too many good things, lol. I wouldn't want to take that away from my kid. Plus, I don't think most people are doing it anymore. The trend has been dying off lately so by the time I have kids he'll be in the majority.

Does it pay rent?

No. But it's definetely an aid in masturbation (which I do plenty of) and supposedly for sexual intercourse as well. Not something I'd want to just get rid of if you know what I mean.

^^^^^Not sure that's the best way to convince parents not to do it. lol

Forgiveness Man wrote:

^^^^^Not sure that's the best way to convince parents not to do it. lol

We'll I'm not really trying to convince other parents not to do it. People are going to do whatever the hell they want to do with their own kids anyway, and they're going to do it because it is their OWN preference, not the child's preference. I wouldn't have my own kid circumcised because I think it's stupid and as a parent why would I to limit my son's sexual options later in life?

Forgiveness Man wrote:

^^^^^Not sure that's the best way to convince parents not to do it. lol

Why not? What do you have against masturbation, lol?

I just found this video on youtube. Not sure how old it is but I'm guessing pretty old. And it amazes me that most American's probably wouldn't even know how one of the leading pediatricians of our time feel about routine infant circumcision.

wesley wrote:

We'll I'm not really trying to convince other parents not to do it. People are going to do whatever the hell they want to do with their own kids anyway, and they're going to do it because it is their OWN preference, not the child's preference. I wouldn't have my own kid circumcised because I think it's stupid and as a parent why would I to limit my son's sexual options later in life?

I wish I had that option but that decision was made for me at birth. If I had a son I would let him make his own decision when he was old enough, if he wanted to be circumcised he could have it done as a teenager.

Tony Marino wrote:

I wish I had that option but that decision was made for me at birth. If I had a son I would let him make his own decision when he was old enough, if he wanted to be circumcised he could have it done as a teenager.

Unfortunately most guys that grow up in the states never get that option and many people today in America would still prefer to take that decision away from their child.

Religious circumcision of kids a crime - German court

A German court has ruled that parents can’t have their sons circumcised on religious grounds in a move which has angered Muslim and Jewish groups in the country.
The court in Cologne decided that a legal guardian’s authority over a child does not allow them to subject them to the procedure, which the court called minor bodily harm, reports The Financial Times Deutschland.

Neither does religious freedom, which is protected by law in Germany, give grounds for such decisions to be taken for the children, the ruling says. The court was considering a case against a Muslim doctor, who performed circumcision on a four-year-old boy at his parents’ request. Two days after the procedure bleeding started, after which the boy had to be taken to hospital.

German authorities learned about the incident and launched a criminal investigation against the doctor. The initial court trial ruled that there was no violation of the law, but the prosecutor’s office took the case to the Cologne district court.

The decision sets a precedent, which may affect medical practice across the country. The possible ban on circumcision provoked outrage among Jewish and Muslim organizations in Germany, where every year thousands of boys are circumcised in their early years at the request of parents. They regard the ban as a "serious interference in the right to freedom of religion." But none of the organizations so far has commented on the verdict, explaining they first need to study thoroughly the reasoning of the judges.

Some experts however don’t rule out that the right for religiously motivated circumcision will be considered by the Federal Constitutional Court.

http://www.rt.com/news/germany-religious-circumcision-ban-772/


A German Court Has Ruled That Circumcising An Infant Is A Physical Assault

A district court in Cologne, Germany has ruled that circumcising an infant for reasons other than medical necessity should be considered a physical assault, the Financial Times Deutschland reports.

The ruling was prompted by the case of an Islamic couple who had their child hospitalized after he bled for two days after a religious circumcision. The court's decision is expected by some to serve as a precedent for future cases in Germany. Others believe the topic of religiously motivated circumcision will inevitably end up in the German Supreme Court.

AFP reports that Jewish groups within the country are outraged, with the head of the Central Committee of Jews, Dieter Graumann calling the decision "outrageous and insensitive". Infantile circumcision is a common practice in Judaism, Islam, and Christianity. Those in favor of circumcision usually cite the belief that the government banning circumcision is infringing on the individual right of freedom of religion.

However there appears to be a growing movement in Europe to ban the practice when performed for religious reasons, based on the argument that the child cannot consent to the procedure. Just last month a representative of Norway's Center Party created controversy by saying that the religious procedure should be banned.

http://www.businessinsider.com/germany-circumcision-illegal-cologne-2012-6

"... Those in favor of circumcision usually cite the belief that the government banning circumcision is infringing on the individual right of freedom of religion.

However there appears to be a growing movement in Europe to ban the practice when performed for religious reasons, based on the argument that the child cannot consent to the procedure. Just last month a representative of Norway's Center Party created controversy by saying that the religious procedure should be banned."

Looks like the Europeans are starting to understand 'individual rights' as in protecting the child being mutilated without his consent.

So the former land of the Nazis is claiming a major tenet of the Jewish faith is illegal?

Why is this not surprising?

Verve wrote:

So the former land of the Nazis is claiming a major tenet of the Jewish faith is illegal?

Why is this not surprising?

That's very insulting to anyone who is of German descent. The idea that antisemitism has something to with this is ridiculous!