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    Gay Rights Movement and the Civil Rights Movement

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    Post by Chris Mon Nov 22, 2010 9:43 am

    Do you consider the plight of Gay rights today or par with the Civil Rights Movement of the 1950s and '60s?
    Obviously they aren't exactly the same, but how do you feel about the parallels, analogies and comparisons that are often made about what LGBT's are struggling for today versus what people of color struggled for in the days of Rosa Parks, MLK and Malcolm X?

    Is it a fair one?
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    Post by Nhaiyel Mon Nov 22, 2010 12:02 pm

    The short version is...

    - They're not the same
    - They're both equally important
    - Neither one is finished
    - It's neither one's fault that the other hasn't achieved it.

    As for comparisons, I think the plight for Gay Equality actually has more in common with the Women's Rights Movement of the early 1900s than the Civil Rights Movement of the '50 and '60s.
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    Post by RobbieFTW Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:37 pm

    There are a bunch of circumstances and living conditions that makes the JOURNEYS of each different but I the bottom line is the same, everyone wants to be free and to have the same rights and respect as the main majority. . . straight white men.
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    Post by Forgiveness Man Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:51 pm

    I think the two are so radically different it's laughable to even compare them.
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    Post by Alan Smithee Mon Nov 22, 2010 2:25 pm

    Nhaiyel wrote:The short version is...

    - They're not the same
    - They're both equally important
    - Neither one is finished
    - It's neither one's fault that the other hasn't achieved it.

    As for comparisons, I think the plight for Gay Equality actually has more in common with the Women's Rights Movement of the early 1900s than the Civil Rights Movement of the '50 and '60s.

    Well said.
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    Post by Nystyle709 Mon Nov 22, 2010 8:05 pm

    Two words: hell no.
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    Post by Nystyle709 Mon Nov 22, 2010 8:05 pm

    Nhaiyel wrote:The short version is...

    - They're not the same
    - They're both equally important
    - Neither one is finished
    - It's neither one's fault that the other hasn't achieved it.

    As for comparisons, I think the plight for Gay Equality actually has more in common with the Women's Rights Movement of the early 1900s than the Civil Rights Movement of the '50 and '60s.
    Yup. I will agree with this.
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    Post by MandyPerfumeGirl Mon Nov 22, 2010 8:19 pm

    I think the two movements are very much alike. I think one commonality is this: Now a'days people look back at the Civil Rights Movement in the '50's and '60's and think "Why weren't blacks given equal rights in the first place? Ridiculous!" and I think that's how people will look at gay rights and the Gay Rights Movement decades from now. In 2051 people are going to be saying "Why were gays being discriminated against in the first place?" No human should have to fight for rights that they're entitled to - it should be a given, something they're born with. The U.S. is so backwards in so many ways.
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    Post by captainbryce Mon Nov 22, 2010 9:01 pm

    Chris wrote:Do you consider the plight of Gay rights today or par with the Civil Rights Movement of the 1950s and '60s?
    Obviously they aren't exactly the same, but how do you feel about the parallels, analogies and comparisons that are often made about what LGBT's are struggling for today versus what people of color struggled for in the days of Rosa Parks, MLK and Malcolm X?

    Is it a fair one?
    I think it is a fair comparison in the sense that gays are a minority group that face unfair legal and social discrimination. I don't think the degree of necessity is the same. Blacks were probably being discriminated against more severely and flagrantly (Having to sit at the back of the bus, etc) than gays are today. But there are parallels.
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    Post by Shale Mon Nov 22, 2010 9:42 pm

    Forgiveness_Man wrote:I think the two are so radically different it's laughable to even compare them.
    Well, fortunately the NAACP thinks differently and supports gay rights struggles.
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    Post by Shale Mon Nov 22, 2010 9:49 pm

    MandyPerfumeGirl wrote:I think the two movements are very much alike. I think one commonality is this: Now a'days people look back at the Civil Rights Movement in the '50's and '60's and think "Why weren't blacks given equal rights in the first place? Ridiculous!" and I think that's how people will look at gay rights and the Gay Rights Movement decades from now. In 2051 people are going to be saying "Why were gays being discriminated against in the first place?" No human should have to fight for rights that they're entitled to - it should be a given, something they're born with. The U.S. is so backwards in so many ways.
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    Post by Forgiveness Man Mon Nov 22, 2010 10:06 pm

    Shale wrote:
    Well, fortunately the NAACP thinks differently and supports gay rights struggles.
    Fortunately they do think differently, I agree. I don't want to be thinking the same way as left-wing special interesting groups. Razz I am sure you feel the same about right-wing groups. (Which makes your post a tad pointless.)
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    Post by stonestatic Tue Nov 23, 2010 10:30 am

    No. Similar but not the same.

    recently I've heard or read comments from two people that pretty much sum it up for me...

    Dan Savage:

    "The black Civil Rights movement will always be 'THE' civil rights movement."



    And this article by Leonard Pitts, Jr. -- The article is him taking the black community to task for it's Pro-Prop 8 vote...but honestly the article could be flipped to either community...but there is one part that really draws the contrast and comparison well:

    Moreover, it leaves me wondering for the umpteenth time how people who have known so much of oppression can turn around and oppress.

    Yes, I know. I can hear some black folk yelling at me from here, wanting me to know it's not the same, what gays have gone through and what black people did, wanting me to know they acted from sound principles and strong values. It is justification and rationalization, and I've heard it all before. I wish they would explain to me how they can, with a straight face, use arguments against gay people that were first tested and perfected against us.

    When, for instance, they use an obscure passage from the Bible to claim God has ordained the mistreatment of gays, don't they hear an echo of white people using that Bible to claim God ordained the mistreatment of blacks?

    When they rail against homosexuality as ''unnatural,'' don't they remember when that word was used to describe abolition, interracial marriage and school integration?

    When they say they'd have no trouble with gay people if they would just stop ''flaunting'' their sexuality, doesn't it bring to mind all those good ol' boys who said they had no problem with ''Nigras'' so long as they stayed in their place?

    No, the black experience and the gay experience are not equivalent. Gay people were not the victims of mass kidnap or mass enslavement.

    No war was required to strike the shackles from their limbs.

    But that's not the same as saying blacks and gays have nothing in common. On the contrary, gay people, like black people, know what it's like to be left out, lied about, scapegoated, discriminated against, held up, beat down, denied a job, a loan or a life. And, too, they know how it feels to sit there and watch other people vote upon your very humanity, just as if those other people had a right. So beg pardon, but black people should know better. I feel the same when Jews are racist, or gays anti-Semitic. Those who bear scars from intolerance should be the last to practice it.

    The full article is here.

    I think there is a lot fo truth there...we'll never know fully what it's like to be in the other person's place...but we can relate to the similarities.

    But honestly...can anybody in either community say they know what it's like to be a slave? To be marched off to the gas chambers? I think the civil rights movements today are a lot more similar than they were in the past...but still not the same. No way.
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    Post by Shale Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:00 am

    Forgiveness_Man wrote: Fortunately they do think differently, I agree. I don't want to be thinking the same way as left-wing special interesting groups. Razz I am sure you feel the same about right-wing groups. (Which makes your post a tad pointless.)

    Tell us, what is so special interest about wanting to be treated the same as others. To be able to hold hands with your lover in a public place, to kiss said lover in the same places that boys and girls kiss.

    What is so special about not being discriminated against because of erroneous perceptions of the majority culture, whether that is a racial, religious or heterosexual majority.

    It is tiresome when ppl with no clue about discrimination proclaim that those wanting to be treated equally are seeking "special" rights.
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    Post by JM130ELM Tue Nov 23, 2010 12:48 pm

    The level of struggle each movement had/has, is harder to compare. I think it's best not to even try. There have been other struggles for different groups and it can be hard to compare two of them with each other. (but just to throw it out there, think about the genocide of the Native American population, think about the hutu's and the tutsi in Rwanda and other instances of inter-ethnic violence in Africa, or the black people in South Africa, the aboriginals in Australia, the Indian populations of Latin America, the different castes and the Dalits in India)

    But to get back to the civil rights movement and gay rights...

    There are some passing similarities, but more obvious differences.

    Skin color and sexual orientation are not the same thing, thus the struggles for both to be seen as equal cannot be the same thing either. It involves different levels of acceptance. People agree on the fact that you are born black, and you cannot change your skin color. People do not agree on whether homosexuality is something you are born with. Some still see it as a preference, a choice, as something that can be altered. With skin color there is no such argument to be had.

    So there is a different battle to be won by each movement. Both want acceptance as human beings, both want equality, but one has to also convince people of something of which the origin is not yet known. Skin color is hereditary, sexual orientation is not. Where sexual orientation comes from, what makes a person gay, has not been fully explained. Skin color is easily explained compared to sexuality. So the arguments to get equal rights vary quite a bit. Black people have had to fight to be seen as equal, gay people have had to fight to be seen as equal and have had to fight to convince people that it's not their own choice to be gay.

    Black people have had to endure far greater levels of direct oppression. They could be segregated more easily because you can see the color of skin. Gay people were oppressed indirectly, the oppression often done by unspoken societal rules. For a long time homosexuality was invisible, black people never had the option to retreat and hide, while still be able to blend in on some level. One could argue gay people for a long time had no option but to retreat and hide, but they could still be part of society.

    I could write longer, but I have to go now. What I was basically trying to say is this: There are similarities in both movements, mainly emotional similarities, because people feel oppressed and feel they have a right to be seen as equal. There are many differences between both movements, differences that make it very hard to compare them. The sentiment both groups feel can be loosely compared, but the battles and struggles they fought in the past and are fighting today cannot.
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    Post by CatEyes10736 Tue Nov 23, 2010 2:21 pm

    While there is no comparing the scope of the sufferings of those subjugated to slavery and the inhumanity and indignity of segregation/Jim Crow to the gay rights movement...discrimination, intolerance, bigotry and hate in ALL forms must be vigilantly opposed and overturned. Equal rights under the law for all Americans is something that should be fought for by all Americans of good will, without equivocation. No human being is superior or inferior as human beings to any other under the law or in any moral context.
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    Post by Forgiveness Man Tue Nov 23, 2010 2:53 pm

    Shale wrote:

    Tell us, what is so special interest about wanting to be treated the same as others. To be able to hold hands with your lover in a public place, to kiss said lover in the same places that boys and girls kiss.

    What is so special about not being discriminated against because of erroneous perceptions of the majority culture, whether that is a racial, religious or heterosexual majority.

    It is tiresome when ppl with no clue about discrimination proclaim that those wanting to be treated equally are seeking "special" rights.

    You can legally hold hands in public. People may not like it but you can't legislate what they think. You can even kiss your lovers where-ever you want. The special interest comes in when you try to tell other people that they have to like watching you do that or they are bigots. (And that is essentially what these groups do essentially) Very few special interest groups don't take offense when you call them one. People are always fighting for "equality." And if you don't see their fight in the same light they do, they get all bitter. For example, if you dare to say that you do not see the similarities between the civil and gay rights movements..... earth forbid. Razz

    It's tiring when people don't see the world in the same way you do? It's tiring when people don't see the actions of your cause matching up with your publicity mottos? It's tiring being alive? Yeah, life's tiring.
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    Post by femme fatale Wed Nov 24, 2010 1:55 pm

    I agree with everyone else that they're not the same once you recognize the scope of the mountain black folks had to climb to get to where they are today, which isn't any wonderful place. The violent oppression and discrimination they faced is a system that was in place for centuries and have left black people in America in a state of disarray that I wonder if we'll ever climb out of. That system of oppression has shaped black culture and values mostly for the worst.

    Gays will also face discrimination for years to come because like with every minority group, there's a campaign set to devalue, belittle, humiliate, ostracize and criminalize them (if necessary). Many people still believe homosexuals are all deviants, pedophiles, perverts or at the very least victims of what it means to be crazy. So in a vague and roundabout way it maybe can be likened to the campaign against blacks was to paint us as impulsive, less intelligent, uncivilized beasts.

    The affects of gay discrimination will be felt for generations after it's legally ended. It will shape our culture, it will shape negative attitudes towards gay people and it will create a negative atmosphere in the gay community. This negative atmosphere will be passed on to children raised by gay parents and the same perpetual cycle of embitterment will develop. A lot of affluent gays just don't know how to cope with all this and will develop severe internal conflicts and mental disorders that will probably go unchecked because the argument will be "You're equal citizens now, you have nothing to complain about." If only it were that simple.
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    Post by CeCe Wed Nov 24, 2010 2:18 pm

    Shale wrote:

    Tell us, what is so special interest about wanting to be treated the same as others. To be able to hold hands with your lover in a public place, to kiss said lover in the same places that boys and girls kiss.

    What is so special about not being discriminated against because of erroneous perceptions of the majority culture, whether that is a racial, religious or heterosexual majority.

    It is tiresome when ppl with no clue about discrimination proclaim that those wanting to be treated equally are seeking "special" rights.

    This is the thing that bugs me. When people say gays want "special" rights that's not true. No, just equal. There's never a valid reason why they want to deny those rights. It's mostly based in personal opinion & religion which should play no part in the basic human rights of anyone. The very idea that the rights of anyone or any group of people should be put to a vote is disgusting to me. I'm appalled when I hear someone say "the people have spoken". There are some things that "the people" are not entitled to decide.

    As far as the gay rights/civil rights issue I think it's a combination. There are similarities to both the civil rights movement & a good point someone else brought up about the women's rights issue. There are elements of both. But it's not identical to either. Basic rights ARE being denied & people have been assaulted & killed simply for being gay. But like both movements I believe it will take legislation to make changes because people won't do it on their own. I'm probably not articulating this very well but it's really its own entity. But I guess people feel a need to make a comparison to something & it's probably the closest thing there is to that.
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    Post by captainbryce Wed Nov 24, 2010 4:15 pm

    Forgiveness_Man wrote:Fortunately they do think differently, I agree. I don't want to be thinking the same way as left-wing special interesting groups. Razz I am sure you feel the same about right-wing groups. (Which makes your post a tad pointless.)
    I never understood this line of reasoning frankly. Any group that supports civil rights is "left wing"? Or is it that only left wing groups support issues surrounding civil liberties? Which one is it and why should it be an insult to be equated with such an group? confused
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    Post by Forgiveness Man Wed Nov 24, 2010 5:41 pm

    captainbryce wrote:I never understood this line of reasoning frankly. Any group that supports civil rights is "left wing"? Or is it that only left wing groups support issues surrounding civil liberties? Which one is it and why should it be an insult to be equated with such an group? confused
    It's neither. I specifically referred to one group in particular who I feel is too far left and thus do not wish to be associated with.
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    Post by Nystyle709 Wed Nov 24, 2010 7:55 pm

    Why do you think the NAACP is 'far too left'?
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    Post by captainbryce Sat Nov 27, 2010 1:57 pm

    What makes them "radically different" comparisons? And why are "special interest groups" that champion equal rights considered "left wing" groups? And why is that a bad thing?

    Forgiveness_Man wrote:The special interest comes in when you try to tell other people that they have to like watching you do that or they are bigots. (And that is essentially what these groups do essentially)
    Sir, that is not a "special interest". That is called THE TRUTH. If you argue openly against watching two heterosexuals hold hands or kiss in public, but are okay with heterosexuals doing exactly the same thing, you ARE a bigot. That's what bigotry is! If you don't like being called a bigot, then you should stop being one. But you can't claim that people are supporting a special interest when they point out the obvious. The fact is, you just don't like the negative connotation that comes along with bigotry. But that doesn't mean it suddenly becomes untrue when you demonstrate it. Pointing out the hypocrisy or bigotry of someone else is not a special interest.

    Forgiveness_Man wrote:People are always fighting for "equality." And if you don't see their fight in the same light they do, they get all bitter. For example, if you dare to say that you do not see the similarities between the civil and gay rights movements..... earth forbid. Razz
    Nobody has a problem with anyone thinking or saying that as long as they explain WHY. We are still waiting for you do to so. I can say that I don't see the similarities between black people and white people, but if I failed to explain that statement I would probably be considered a racist. There is no difference. I would make such a statement, then choose not to back it up with anything else only if I wanted to come off as a racist. When you suggest that there is a radical difference between gay rights and civil rights, then call groups that champion either one of them "special interests" groups, it makes you come off as a bigot. But when I point that out, (according to you) it means that I have a special interest?
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    Post by Forgiveness Man Sat Nov 27, 2010 2:09 pm

    captainbryce wrote:What makes them "radically different" comparisons? And why are "special interest groups" that champion equal rights considered "left wing" groups? And why is that a bad thing?


    Sir, that is not a "special interest". That is called THE TRUTH. If you argue openly against watching two heterosexuals hold hands or kiss in public, but are okay with heterosexuals doing exactly the same thing, you ARE a bigot. That's what bigotry is! If you don't like being called a bigot, then you should stop being one. But you can't claim that people are supporting a special interest when they point out the obvious. The fact is, you just don't like the negative connotation that comes along with bigotry. But that doesn't mean it suddenly becomes untrue when you demonstrate it. Pointing out the hypocrisy or bigotry of someone else is not a special interest.

    Nobody has a problem with anyone thinking or saying that as long as they explain WHY. We are still waiting for you do to so. I can say that I don't see the similarities between black people and white people, but if I failed to explain that statement I would probably be considered a racist. There is no difference. I would make such a statement, then choose not to back it up with anything else only if I wanted to come off as a racist. When you suggest that there is a radical difference between gay rights and civil rights, then call groups that champion either one of them "special interests" groups, it makes you come off as a bigot. But when I point that out, (according to you) it means that I have a special interest?
    What makes them radically different is that they are not the same. They don't share any true similarities and thus they are different. Wink Not seeing similarities doesn't make somebody a bigot, it makes them the owner of a different viewpoint. (As for being left-wing being bad, people here have lamented the right-wing just as hard.)

    Um no, that is not what bigotry is and suggesting that sharing a different viewpoint on gay rights is bigotry is a bigoted idea in it of itself. So much for tolerance...tolerating YOU but if anybody disagrees with you(on this issue at least), call them a bigot. deranged

    Nobody in the movement is pointing out truth; they are just pointing fingers.

    It only makes me come off as a bigot if you are of the belief that I have to share your views in order to be considered not a bigot, as if your views are somehow the one and only anti-bigotry. Please. And excuse me but what's to explain about the statement? Saying that you have to see gay rights and civil rights in the same light or you are a bigot, THAT to me comes off as the bigoted statement since you are invalidating a viewpoint simply because you don't like it. There's nothing TO explain about the statement. Some people just do not see gay rights movements and civil rights movements in the same light. Labeling them bigots because of them just makes you a hypocrite for preaching tolerance but practicing it only selectively.

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    Post by TSJFan4Ever Sun Nov 28, 2010 3:12 am

    Nhaiyel wrote:The short version is...

    - They're not the same
    - They're both equally important
    - Neither one is finished
    - It's neither one's fault that the other hasn't achieved it.

    As for comparisons, I think the plight for Gay Equality actually has more in common with the Women's Rights Movement of the early 1900s than the Civil Rights Movement of the '50 and '60s.

    Yeah - I'd agree with this, more than that it compares to the civil rights movements. I wouldn't go so far as to compare it to the civil rights' movements, though there are similarities. Definitely more in keeping with the women's rights movements.

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