Would you consider it overstepping church/state if a public school were to post the 'Ten Commandments' in their halls, or classrooms?

Of course it would. It would be more useful to post the Bill of Rights.

Quote :

Should 'Ten Commandments' should be posted in public schools?

Yes

Alan Smithee wrote:

Of course it would. It would be more useful to post the Bill of Rights.

Or the five Buddhist Precepts:

I undertake to observe the rule
to abstain from taking life
to abstain from taking what is not given
to abstain from false speech
to abstain from sensuous misconduct
to abstain from intoxicants as tending to cloud the mind

Since most Jews & Christians violate the ten, it would be more efficient to have just five to rationalize.

I remember somebody saying 20 years ago you were more likely to see the Ten Commandments in a school than just about anywhere else...and somebody said the day they stopped teaching them in school, they would be too busy fighting the crime in school for anything else...that certainly seems to have been a self fulfilling prophecy.

Well, maybe it would be useful to actually look at what the 10 Commandments are, first:

From Exodus ch.20:

And God spoke all these words, saying: 'I am the LORD your God…

ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'

TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'

THREE: 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'

FOUR: 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.'

FIVE: 'Honor your father and your mother.'

SIX: 'You shall not murder.'

SEVEN: 'You shall not commit adultery.'

EIGHT: 'You shall not steal.'

NINE: 'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.'

TEN: 'You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.

__________________

Seems pretty harmless and a no-brainer to me--respect your parents, don't be jealous, a liar, thief or murderer, and don't let things in life, whatever that may be, become "gods" for you, so that you focus on that over what actually matters. Doesn't seem like too difficult a reminder to basically watch your thoughts and actions, and be a decent person.

But oh---now all the aetheists will be offended if that happens, because "God" was mentioned, and we're all supposed to embrace diversity, no matter how diverse it gets, to the point where it's actually more acceptable to "be diverse" than to have the viewpoint of one who believes in God.

So yeah, I think the 10 Commandments should be posted right up there with everything else they post--cheerleading tryouts, student Gay/Lesbian club meeting, chess club, football,--but it'll never happen.

Opa Shale wrote:

Let's hope it never happens. School clubs, cheerleading and sports are elective school functions open to everyone who wishes to participate. Religious edicts are from an exclusive belief system.

This is exactly why they should NOT be posted in the public venue in a secular society (paid for in part by all those Atheist, Agnostic, Buddhist and other non-believer taxes). Of course YOU have no problem with it, YOU believe in all that shit, like some old man in the sky, vindictive, meddlesome, Zeus-like god throwing lightning bolts down on any non-believer.

You are protected by the US Constitution to believe what you want and to practice that belief - on your own time and your own dime. Spare us the persecution because YOUR religious views are not allowed to be pushed onto the population at large.

BINGO! And there it is--see? It's ok and acceptable for people (not necessarily you, but in general) to go around promoting non-belief, free love-and let's-have-sex-with anyone-and-everyone views, legalizing drugs like marijuana, and hey, all sorts of other feel-good stuff, yet it's not ok for me to toss my beliefs/views out there, as a Believer. Ah, I knew it was only a matter of mere moments before the claws would come out! LOL

I'm not quite sure how you see being nice to your parents, not killing, stealing, lying or cheating on your--ooooh, wait for it, wait for it-- the diversity---"Life Partner/Significant Other", to be persecution. Seems to me that the Commandments are basically rules for conducting oneself in a morally and socially upright manner.

Well, everyone's entitled to live their lives the way they see fit, but whether or not you (choose to) believe in God, we're all gonna answer to Him someday, so I'd rather get my ducks in order before it's my turn.

Hyacinth Girl wrote:

BINGO! And there it is--see? It's ok and acceptable for people (not necessarily you, but in general) to go around promoting non-belief, free love-and let's-have-sex-with anyone-and-everyone views, legalizing drugs like marijuana, and hey, all sorts of other feel-good stuff, yet it's not ok for me to toss my beliefs/views out there, as a Believer. Ah, I knew it was only a matter of mere moments before the claws would come out! LOL

I'm not quite sure how you see being nice to your parents, not killing, stealing, lying or cheating on your--ooooh, wait for it, wait for it-- the diversity---"Life Partner/Significant Other", to be persecution. Seems to me that the Commandments are basically rules for conducting oneself in a morally and socially upright manner.

Well, everyone's entitled to live their lives the way they see fit, but whether or not you (choose to) believe in God, we're all gonna answer to Him someday, so I'd rather get my ducks in order before it's my turn.

Yeah I don't get this either, no killing, no stealing, these are laws, why is teaching people to obey the laws suddenly a narrow minded thing to do?

I know we still got 3 months until Christmas but the whole discussion kind of reminds me of these cartoons:

Supernova wrote:

Yeah I don't get this either, no killing, no stealing, these are laws, why is teaching people to obey the laws suddenly a narrow minded thing to do?

^^Because it's easier to rationalize out bad behavior in the name of temporary insanity, free will, or whatever the case may be, so you don't have to actually focus on the fact that some things are wrong, and/or "sins" according to Christian belief. "Sinning" can be fun (for some) and quick access to and instant gratification for getting what you want out of life rather than taking the harder road of working for it, perservering, being morally sound, and policing yourself to steer away from stuff that gets you in trouble.

Hence, all our wonderful laws that make it possible for criminals, illegal aliens, social-freeloaders, etc., to have more rights than those of us who strive to make an honest attempt at staying within the confines of no-brainer rules that are meant to make society work as a whole.

So if some of those rules happen to have the word "God" in their text--nope, I'm not gonna feel bad about that.

Opa Shale wrote:

In proselytizing your religious fanaticism, did you even read what I wrote?

"You are protected by the US Constitution to believe what you want and to practice that belief - on your own time and your own dime. Spare us the persecution because YOUR religious views are not allowed to be pushed onto the population at large."

How can I make it any more clear? Yes, I promote my free-luv, anti-religion, alternative sexuality views, just as you are promoting ancient religious mumbo-jumbo - ON A FORUM BOARD. I am not advocating posting my views in a public school filled with ppl from diverse belief systems, as should you. Unless of course you feel it is right to push your particular (and I might add not universally accepted) religious views on others.

So a forum board is no less public than a public school?? Again, people can believe what they want, and do what they want, but in my opinion, for Jesus Christ to have been the only person to have fulfilled 450 of the Messianic prophecies in the Bible, and also be the only "god" who's name is used as a swear-word (you don't hear people going around saying "Oh Buddah" or "Oh Allah" when they're pissed)--then it seems to me that there's something not to be ignored about God/His existence.

I'd hate to be some people on Judgement Day--don't say we Believers didn't warn 'ya! Mumbo-jumbo to some, maybe, but in the end, there are no aetheists in Hell, 'cause if someone ends up there, then they'll sure believe there was a God at that point.

Opa Shale wrote:

Or the five Buddhist Precepts:

I undertake to observe the rule
to abstain from taking life
to abstain from taking what is not given
to abstain from false speech
to abstain from sensuous misconduct
to abstain from intoxicants as tending to cloud the mind

Since most Jews & Christians violate the ten, it would be more efficient to have just five to rationalize.

of course most christians would claim that's a violation of the separation of church & state. So well there you go...

No ones "rights" are being denied or taken away by not allowing religious doctrine of any kind in the public school system. The children there are being raised under every religion in existence as well as none at all. Religious doctrine belongs in the home & the church & applied to their own individual lives without crossing the boundary into that of other people.

Opa Shale wrote:

If I wrote what I was thinking right now Chris would have to kick me off this board. But I will say, without directing it at you "Fucking unbelievable!"

You are right about one thing, it was the Magi who gave Jesus his name.

It happened because the Magi were very tall and the ppl in Bethlehem were short, so their doorways were about 6 feet high. When the black Magus started to enter the stable, he smacked the shit out of his head on the doorframe and said "JESUS CHRIST!! THAT HURT." Mary looked up at him and said, "You know that is better than Bernard."

And there's the difference--I being a Believer, never once made fun of your non-beliefs, but yet, again, it's ok for those with your views to mock people with my views and have it be socially acceptable. Nice, very nice, but nothing surprising to me.

Yes, Chris would kick us both off for writing what's truly on our minds, so in an effort to avoid that, I'll keep mine simple: you're arrogant, totally in love with yourself, and still singing "We Shall Overcome". (BTW, 1969 ended at 12am on January 1st, 1970--get over it by now.)

Hyacinth Girl wrote:

... you're arrogant, totally in love with yourself, and still singing "We Shall Overcome". (BTW, 1969 ended at 12am on January 1st, 1970--get over it by now.)

Well, I see the gauntlet has been removed and thrown down. (BTW since we are on the subject of Medieval costuming, the Dark Ages ended in the 14th Century - get over it by now)

My critique of you (since that seems acceptable): You are a self-righteous, bigoted, narrow-minded prig.

Furthermore, I have never sang "We Shall Overcome." It is sort of an anthem of the civil rights movement. Show some respect.

[quote="Hyacinth Girl"]

Marijuana is not a drug.

I see no harm in having the 10 commandments in school--- especially since the most religious nation in the country--- a whopping 75% polled claim to be religious, mostly of judeo-christian descent is the USA.

I also believe that kids should have religious classes taught sort of like a sociology elective. Teach about the various religions and regions of the world. Why people believe what they do and the various customs of the world---promote tolerance and understanding, rather than division.

There is a public school, i believe in NC, that is among the highest tested school in the nation that allows prayer--- not out loud spoken prayer, but moments of silent meditation throughout the day. There is less violence, better grades, and higher test scores. Coincidence?

NyStyle--Yes, Marijuana is a drug, and one that falls into the category of "substance abuse". It's part of a panel of 9 drug classes that we run on urines where I work in the laboratory.

Shale--The point I'm getting at is that aetheists/non-believers sure have no problem telling us that do believe, what a bunch of shit they think our beliefs are and how tired they are of hearing our testimony. Well--tit for tat; it's a two way street and did it ever occur to that group of people, that perhaps we feel the same way about them, and we're think that belief system is a crock and we're tired of all their blah-blah too??

Perhaps we should post the Commandments in schools but put a disclaimer on them to the effect of "For those of you who don't believe in God, kindly disregard the first 4 or so, but everyone take note of 5-10." There--that about covers all the diversity.

Don't think it SHOULD be, but I'd have no problem with it if it is.

Quote :

It'll be a two-way street when the non-believers want to include into the curriculum the facts of how Christianity is unsupportable and has a wretched history of persecuting non-believers. So far that is not the case (but watch those comparitive religion classes - real Church history is not pleasant) The Christians want to include their belief system in the curriculum as fact and prosyletize their message. The public schools are not the place for religion to be taught - that is why they have tax-exempt churches
(that are not supposed to be involved in politics )

Actually, in my public school we were taught the history of the catholic church, the reformation, the counter reformation, the separation of Luther--- the Inquisition. The slaughter of the Huegenots, calvinist, and various protestant/jewish/muslim sects throughout history by the catholic church HAD to be taught because it cannot be separated from Western European history. My public school taught about the sale of induglences, the sale of offices, and the corruption in the church. I learned A LOT. But even then I felt jilted. I did not get to learn about OTHER opinions, customs, and beliefs.

Shale-- You have mentioned Budhism several times. What would be the harm in having an elective class which talks of ALL the worlds religions, and discusses their themes, beliefs, customs, norms, and rituals? Why would THAT be a bad thing? Would that be a way for children to understand the world better and even explore their own idea of religion?

wants2laugh wrote:

Shale-- You have mentioned Budhism several times. What would be the harm in having an elective class which talks of ALL the worlds religions, and discusses their themes, beliefs, customs, norms, and rituals? Why would THAT be a bad thing? Would that be a way for children to understand the world better and even explore their own idea of religion?

W2L, I could be wrong, but I don't think Shale or at least any of us other non-believers who've never tried to force our beliefs on anyone, have a problem with what you suggest. In fact, I've taken one or two of those classes and found them very interesting. But teaching those classes isn't promoting any particular religion and despite the coming denial of those believers here, posting the ten commandments in Chris' hypothetical setting IS promoting certain religions above others.

I find it interesting that people who complain that not allowing religious displays on public/government property is at the expense of their freedom when in reality, it's for the preservation of their freedom. This country was settled in no small part by a group that was trying to escape religious intolerance at the hands of a state sanctioned religion. By prohibiting federal, state and local governments from even brushing up against religion, it prevents those same authorities from coming into the believer's houses of worship and telling them what to do. Oh I know. The trifling act of posting a religious doctrine in public schools and courtrooms or setting up manger scenes in town squares every December could never lead to that kind of government intrusion. Maybe not overnight but the fact that you don't think it could ever happen means that it certainly could.

Supernova wrote:

I remember somebody saying 20 years ago you were more likely to see the Ten Commandments in a school than just about anywhere else...and somebody said the day they stopped teaching them in school, they would be too busy fighting the crime in school for anything else...that certainly seems to have been a self fulfilling prophecy.

I don't believe they ever did to begin with.