This is a concept that is out there. I don't think I fully agree to it. I don't think anyone should be spoken ill of if they don't deserve it, but once a person is dead, if he/she was a shitty person, why not still be honest when speaking of them?

But, then again, it probably isn't the most fair thing for their family that is grieving the loss. So I don't know.

I don't get the whole idea behind not speaking ill of the dead, is it for fear the dead will come back and beat the hell out of you?

Supernova wrote:

I don't get the whole idea behind not speaking ill of the dead, is it for fear the dead will come back and beat the hell out of you?

LOL...I think it is just a respect thing.

Eh....
I think it's an issue of resolving that, no matter how messed up they were in life or what they did to you, it's now over and beating their corpse over it is pointless. Everything they did wrong, they paid for when they died....so instead of dwelling on it, just move on and let it die with them.

At least that's my take on the whole "don't speak ill of the dead" attitude.

I guess if would depend. If it were over something petty, why bother> The person is dead but I'm certainly not going to sit around and say that Hitler or binLadin were good people, just so that I can avoid speaking ill of the dead.

I don't believe that the dead are sacred cows who should never be spoken 'ill' of, but at the same time I basically agree with Marc; in that once someone is dead and gone, the people left in their wake should take steps to move on past any bitterness they have about their mortal sins.

Sometimes there's an interesting thing that happens when people die. It's almost like they become something they...were not. I've noticed it especially with celebs or people in the news. They're vilified in life & deified in death. It's odd. The fact someone is dead doesn't make them off limits but I also don't think it's necessary to trash someone just for the hell of it. It really depends on the situation.

Death casts a rose color over somebody's life. Doesn't mean he/she was a good person.

RedBedroom wrote:

This is a concept that is out there. I don't think I fully agree to it. I don't think anyone should be spoken ill of if they don't deserve it, but once a person is dead, if he/she was a shitty person, why not still be honest when speaking of them?

But, then again, it probably isn't the most fair thing for their family that is grieving the loss. So I don't know.

If what people are saying is the truth then if they were a bad person, I guess it can be talked about. People tend to bend the truth about someone that is deceased and its not fair because they are not around to defend themselves. I believe in speaking about the good of a person when they are gone but sometimes, like in my father's case, that would be almost impossible.

Tony Marino wrote:

RedBedroom wrote:

This is a concept that is out there. I don't think I fully agree to it. I don't think anyone should be spoken ill of if they don't deserve it, but once a person is dead, if he/she was a shitty person, why not still be honest when speaking of them?

But, then again, it probably isn't the most fair thing for their family that is grieving the loss. So I don't know.

If what people are saying is the truth then if they were a bad person, I guess it can be talked about. People tend to bend the truth about someone that is deceased and its not fair because they are not around to defend themselves. I believe in speaking about the good of a person when they are gone but sometimes, like in my father's case, that would be almost impossible.

That's exactly the reason why it's considered bad form to speak negative of the dead. Whether or not the accusations are true, the bottom line is that they aren't here to defend themselves against those remarks and it can be too easy to (as you say) "bend" the truth about who they were/weren't or what they did/didn't do.

JM130ELM wrote:

Tony Marino wrote:

If what people are saying is the truth then if they were a bad person, I guess it can be talked about. People tend to bend the truth about someone that is deceased and its not fair because they are not around to defend themselves. I believe in speaking about the good of a person when they are gone but sometimes, like in my father's case, that would be almost impossible.

That's exactly the reason why it's considered bad form to speak negative of the dead. Whether or not the accusations are true, the bottom line is that they aren't here to defend themselves against those remarks and it can be too easy to (as you say) "bend" the truth about who they were/weren't or what they did/didn't do.

I think that if you knew they were a bad person when they were alive it should just be buried with them. Unfortunately in a lot of cases this does not happen.

Tony Marino wrote:

JM130ELM wrote:

That's exactly the reason why it's considered bad form to speak negative of the dead. Whether or not the accusations are true, the bottom line is that they aren't here to defend themselves against those remarks and it can be too easy to (as you say) "bend" the truth about who they were/weren't or what they did/didn't do.

I think that if you knew they were a bad person when they were alive it should just be buried with them. Unfortunately in a lot of cases this does not happen.

I agree with you both.

Live long enuf and you will outlive your adversaries! I have spoken ill of the dead in print!

One was Ann Landers - whose advice often bordered on the dangerous, especially since so many considered her some kind of authority. She was a relic of the past, pushing outdated mores of her gen as sacrosanct standards of conduct. I often thot the newspaper legal department would have insisted on a disclaimer to her columns that they were exempt from liability.

Anyhow in June 2002 a couple papers publised my article "Ann Landers Silenced," which started "I'm sure Ann Landers would have something to say about talking ill of the dead." The article ran down all her dangerous advice, including her anti-gay stance that she maintained into the 21st Century (The June 2001 column where she chastised a lesbian who did not refrain from showing affection for her partner in front of the family).

However, Ann came back sparing from the grave so I had a right to take her on again. Seems she wrote columns in advance so even after her death they were running and she did her usual anti-nudity 'advice' in July 2002, a month after she died. So yeah, I took her to task for one last piece of lame advice.

There was another local writer that I spared with in print on a regular basis in the weekly rag where he was a columnist, and after he went to work as mouthpiece for this sleazy Miami Beach Mayor. When he abruptly died I did not mince words about one his supporting the unnecessary restrictions on sex offenders in the city, which forced them to live in a colony under an Interstate bridge on the edge of Miami Beach. (You may have heard of it - was an national embarrassment for us).

If you thot they were an asshole in life, why give them undue respect after they kick?

I was brought up not to speak ill of the dead. So I would say true. If you speak negative things about someone that you know for a fact were true, then I don't think you're going to hell for that, but there is no need to dwell or harp on it. They're dead.

But based on that belief, you shouldn't ever say anything bad about anybody ever at anytime ever.

I'm sorry, but that's just not how life works. If you are or were a shithead, I'll be very vocal about it. Alive or dead. If you were an awful person in life, you shouldn't be honored just because you made it to death like EVERYBODY ELSE WILL.

De mortuis nil nisi bonum.

To all who wish to dance on my grave, I'm being buried at sea.

Nystyle709 wrote:

Rockbird wrote:

But based on that belief, you shouldn't ever say anything bad about anybody ever at anytime ever.

I'm sorry, but that's just not how life works. If you are or were a shithead, I'll be very vocal about it. Alive or dead. If you were an awful person in life, you shouldn't be honored just because you made it to death like EVERYBODY ELSE WILL.

Why would you be so vocal about a shithead when he's dead? What's the point in that? You're not being honored if you were a bad person and nobody chooses to speak of you. If anything, that's how you keep a horrible persons spirit alive. You obviously don't believe in karma.

I was quietly ignoring Ronald Reagan's transgressions when he died, but some young gay man who was 12 when Ron was prez, started gushing over him in print and taking to task all the gay detractors who were still pissed at Ron's ignoring the early AIDS crisis. (Honestly, some gay men are so taken by style to the exclusion of substance. Ron Reagan was a fucking actor! Of course he LOOKED good.)

So, I wrote a lengthy letter to the editor the gay weekly that was published on June 25, 2004, running down the "Great Obfuscators" other crimes and misdeeds. You may be forced to speak ill of the historical dead just to bring ppl back to reality and prevent creation of mythical figures that weren't.

Nystyle709 wrote:

Rockbird wrote:

But based on that belief, you shouldn't ever say anything bad about anybody ever at anytime ever.

I'm sorry, but that's just not how life works. If you are or were a shithead, I'll be very vocal about it. Alive or dead. If you were an awful person in life, you shouldn't be honored just because you made it to death like EVERYBODY ELSE WILL.

Why would you be so vocal about a shithead when he's dead? What's the point in that? You're not being honored if you were a bad person and nobody chooses to speak of you. If anything, that's how you keep a horrible persons spirit alive. You obviously don't believe in karma.

Because he shouldn't be remembered for anything other than being a terrible person. So, we're not allowed to bad mouth Ivan the Terrible or Nero? Or should we not discuss the things they did and wait until somebody else does the same?

Buttoning your lip doesn't accomplish anything.

Rockbird wrote:

Buttoning your lip doesn't accomplish anything.

neither does voicing it... when they're dead

I would say false. If a deceased person was a horrible piece of garbage during their lifetime, I don't see any reason not to talk trash about them. I know it's a sign of respect to not speak ill of them, but honestly, who cares? It's not like they can hear you.

You're making sure that the person's history is alive. Because it should be discussed, remembered and never ever forgotten. I'm not one for sweeping things under the rug.

And I don't think there's a different standard for historical figures. History, no matter how prolific, is important.